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#27 Jan 31 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
So, all those scabs are just worried about being homeless against the big mean unions who complain about the totally reasonable demands of big manufacturing? That's the story you're taking away from it?

That's not what he said at all. He didn't complain about the unions or take up the side of the corporations. I have to agree with him that it would be very difficult to walk away from a potential job in a situation where I have a family to take care of, regardless of the long term consequences. I may be willing to sacrifice my own well-being for the sake of the workers, but it's an entirely different story when you throw in others.
#28 Jan 31 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Wages have fallen in real dollars for almost 30 years in the US. The breakdown of union labor and big labor in general has ruined many sectors of the economy. Anti-labor sentiment is often about the propaganda of big business. It's not the workers who are ruining the economy, the town, the factory, etc. It's the companies unwilling to offer a fair wage or give benefits. For every abuse of the labor system by unions, you can easily see thousands of people fucked over in non-union jobs. I think people forget, before the advent of superconglomerates and big box stores like Walmart, service employees made liveable wages. Union busting bs that is rife in the service industry has taken care of that reality. And we're in an economy where the service industry is the biggest employer so we really have to deal with the problems.
Yes yes, it's entirely the companies at fault. The consumer damnding more for less has nothing to do with companies driving down wages and benefits, ever.
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#29 Jan 31 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Wages have fallen in real dollars for almost 30 years in the US. The breakdown of union labor and big labor in general has ruined many sectors of the economy. Anti-labor sentiment is often about the propaganda of big business. It's not the workers who are ruining the economy, the town, the factory, etc. It's the companies unwilling to offer a fair wage or give benefits. For every abuse of the labor system by unions, you can easily see thousands of people fucked over in non-union jobs. I think people forget, before the advent of superconglomerates and big box stores like Walmart, service employees made liveable wages. Union busting bs that is rife in the service industry has taken care of that reality. And we're in an economy where the service industry is the biggest employer so we really have to deal with the problems.
Yes yes, it's entirely the companies at fault. The consumer damnding more for less has nothing to do with companies driving down wages and benefits, ever.


Hey, why blame the most powerful player when we can just blame the average American, with comparably little power? Lower wages. Walmart controlling manufacturing and then driving small businesses out. They shouldn't be blamed. Boy, it's you, Joe Schmoe and your two badly paying jobs that's the problem.

Not to mention how much more influence corporations have on the government that the average worker.

Edited, Jan 31st 2010 3:57pm by Annabella
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#30 Jan 31 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe Joe Schmoe should probably go get himself some real skills, then maybe he'd have one well paying job.

Quote:
Not to mention how much more influence corporations have on the government that the average worker.
Can you imagine how bad it's going to be now that they can pay to get people elected through donations?

Smiley: tinfoilhat
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#31 Jan 31 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Hey, why blame the most powerful player when we can just blame the average American, with comparably little power? Lower wages. Walmart controlling manufacturing and then driving small businesses out. They shouldn't be blamed. Boy, it's you, Joe Schmoe and your two badly paying jobs that's the problem.

Not to mention how much more influence corporations have on the government that the average worker.

Just a few posts ago you were saying the collective power of individuals was sufficient to guarantee good wages and benefits for all workers. Now, however, it's somehow impossible that individuals have had a similar effect on prices? It's not as though we've been following responsible purchasing practices in order to protect our high wages. Consumers want cheaper goods and, let's face it, labor costs account for an awful lot of the end-cost of any product.
#32 Jan 31 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Majivo wrote:
Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Hey, why blame the most powerful player when we can just blame the average American, with comparably little power? Lower wages. Walmart controlling manufacturing and then driving small businesses out. They shouldn't be blamed. Boy, it's you, Joe Schmoe and your two badly paying jobs that's the problem.

Not to mention how much more influence corporations have on the government that the average worker.

Just a few posts ago you were saying the collective power of individuals was sufficient to guarantee good wages and benefits for all workers. Now, however, it's somehow impossible that individuals have had a similar effect on prices? It's not as though we've been following responsible purchasing practices in order to protect our high wages. Consumers want cheaper goods and, let's face it, labor costs account for an awful lot of the end-cost of any product.


Corporations have more influence, through legislation, through controlling supply and demand and through violating anti-trust laws. They need to be held responsible for their labor practices.
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#33 Jan 31 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Maybe Joe Schmoe should probably go get himself some real skills, then maybe he'd have one well paying job.


I'm sorry. That's a retarded statement. I should start calling you Bill O'Reilly.
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Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#34 Jan 31 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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It would depend on the circumstances, but I have no problems with crossing a picket line for work. I wouldn't blame anyone else for doing it either.
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#35 Jan 31 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Quote:
Maybe Joe Schmoe should probably go get himself some real skills, then maybe he'd have one well paying job.


I'm sorry. That's a retarded statement. I should start calling you Bill O'Reilly.
What? I couldn't hear you. Your mustache is muffling your words Joeseph.
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#36 Jan 31 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Quote:
Maybe Joe Schmoe should probably go get himself some real skills, then maybe he'd have one well paying job.


I'm sorry. That's a retarded statement. I should start calling you Bill O'Reilly.
What? I couldn't hear you. Your mustache is muffling your words Joeseph.


I'm sorry, are you still angry that liberals ruined Christmas?
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Turin wrote:
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#37 Jan 31 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
I'm sorry, are you still angry that liberals ruined Christmas?
I'm sorry, have you seen what sales are like at Christmas? You've got to work much harder to ruin Christmas. Our well oiled "sticking it to the poor" machine runs it's best at Christmas.
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#38 Jan 31 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
I'm sorry, are you still angry that liberals ruined Christmas?
I'm sorry, have you seen what sales are like at Christmas? You've got to work much harder to ruin Christmas. Our well oiled "sticking it to the poor" machine runs it's best at Christmas.


You are like Ebeginger Scrooge.
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#39 Jan 31 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have never, and will never cross a picket line if the striking workforce had the opportunity to vote for or against the strike and voted for it.

I have broken a picket where a minority of the workforce called a strike without offering us all the chance to vote it down.

When we're all given the vote, I accept the majority decision. Apparently it's called 'democracy'.
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#40 Jan 31 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Nobby wrote:
When we're all given the vote, I accept the majority decision. Apparently it's called 'democracy'.


Now you are sounding very Chinese.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 12:13am by GwynapNud
#41 Jan 31 2010 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Now you are sounding very Chinese.
Oddly, you just sound thick
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#42 Jan 31 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nobby wrote:
I have never, and will never cross a picket line if the striking workforce had the opportunity to vote for or against the strike and voted for it.

I have broken a picket where a minority of the workforce called a strike without offering us all the chance to vote it down.

When we're all given the vote, I accept the majority decision. Apparently it's called 'democracy'.
What if you're unemployed but qualified? Then you have no affiliation with the striking workers, but have an opportunity for a job.
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#43 Jan 31 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes yes, it's entirely the companies at fault. The consumer damnding more for less has nothing to do with companies driving down wages and benefits, ever.


They pick the best product based on their own cost/benefit analysis, yes, but it's not an articulated "demand" - if they got the same for the same year after year, no one would riot. It's other companies that are being competed with for their custom. It seems silly to blame these two groups for the way the free market works. Companies can be legitimately short changing their workers, though, by paying peanuts to get an absurd profit margin. Is that the case with the auto industry, or have wages been falling (in real terms) there because of international competition? I don't know. It's certainly the case with lots of industries, though, and unions exist to counterbalance that and even the power dynamic between company and worker so that they can negotiate a contract on equal terms. Obviously, if the unions are too weak to secure decent pay, that's a problem. If they;re too strong, that can be a problem, too, although from what I have seen, most cases of "unions being too strong" and securing an unreasonable pension deal is at least partially the fault of short-sighted business decisions by management willing to promise a hundred dollars tomorrow rather than pay one today.
#44 Jan 31 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
If I needed a job and my family was hungry and I might lose my house or be evicted, absolutely yes I would cross.
#45 Feb 01 2010 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
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My first thread disappointment of the week.

Crossing a picket line would be a very situational decision for me.

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#46 Feb 01 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
Crossing a picket line would be a very situational decision for me.



This.

If the company in question was doing something completely unethical, and I was on the verge of homelessness, I think I'd still pass it up. I'd hate to save my family with money that I considered to be ill gotten.

Of course, that's very easy for me to say, having plenty of money and in no danger of losing my job.
#47 Feb 01 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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Fuck unions. I'd cross that shit like a Quaker alphabet sampler.
#48 Feb 01 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Annabella of Future Fabulous! wrote:
Corporations have more influence, through legislation, through controlling supply and demand and through violating anti-trust laws. They need to be held responsible for their labor practices.


There are vastly more laws regulating how corporations must treat their employees than there are controlling how unions should operate though. I'm not sure what you're demanding here. You mention anti-trust laws, but then suggest that they aren't held responsible for their labor practices. We have tons of laws to prevent abuses of employees. You're pulling a bait and switch here. You're advocating for government intervention, not in preventing abuses by companies on their workers but to provide additional power to the unions when negotiating their contracts.

I'm sorry, but that's going to far. I've stated my position in past threads, and it hasn't changed. Labor, as a group, should have as much power to strike successfully as it actually has. Without any government regulation helping or hindering. If you can actually convince all the labor necessary for a particular business to operate to strike, then this means that the need for the labor is greater than the need of the labor. If you don't, then that isn't true and your strike should not be artificially allowed to succeed.


The *only* way to ensure that a labor union is honestly representing the labor force is to allow anyone who wants to cross a picket line to do so. If their labor can be replaced by people who don't want or care about whatever the union is striking over, then that thing obviously wasn't that important and their labor isn't rare enough to justify it.



My other major problem with labor unions is that while they purport to empower "labor", they really empower themselves at the expense of the labor they represent. What happens is that over time, if strikes are assisted or enforced by some outside entity (like the government, unfair contracts, etc) the labor itself becomes less valuable on the open market than its being paid as part of the union. When this happens, the workers in the union become "stuck" in the union. They can't make the same wage outside, so they have to keep supporting the union. The union itself will work to prevent competition, either by expanding its influence in the field, or supporting political changes which benefit it (like prevailing wage laws). This in turn amplifies the problem as more workers are drawn into a field in which the actual demand isn't sufficient to support them.

The end result is that individual worker's ability to compete for good wages is eliminated and replaced by a structure in which only the union can maintain sufficient leverage on the market place to keep the whole thing going. At every point in the workers career, the union appears to be a benefit to him. When starting out, he'll make a higher wage than he would have in a different field. As he gets older, the delta between what he could earn with his current skill set and what he's earning in the union is always beneficial. What's lost though is that had he been subjected to non-artificial pay scales his skill set would have evolved more correctly with the actual demands of the market. He likely would have earned a similar amount of money in the long run, but without needing the union for help.


It's a crutch that when used long enough becomes required. 50 years ago, when labor laws were rudimentary at best, unions were useful tools to force those legal changes. Today? They're just a waste of productivity and should be discarded.
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