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Faulty Bomb Detonated on Plane Bound for DetroitFollow

#52 Dec 28 2009 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
Hijacking implies some control over the vehicle. A fireball plummeting to the ground is not under any kind of control.


Well... technically if your objective is to send the plane plummeting to the ground in a fiery mass, then I suppose you could call this a hijacking. Kinda. Maybe...

Honestly, while I think it was a mistake for Obama to not at least make some kind of statement earlier, it's hardly the biggest issue at hand. I'm also unsure how US security has anything to do with this. It was an international flight from Amsterdam to Detroit. The security rules in other countries are different than those in the US, even on international flights traveling into the US. At the very least, if a mistake was made, it wasn't made by TSA, but by whatever equivalent was employed in Amsterdam.


The rules they're cooking up right now are pretty much silly overreactions of course. But that's par for the course I suppose.

Oh. And Belk? I'm pretty sure they were just checking to see if you brought any "toys" with you on your honeymoon...
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#53 Dec 28 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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San d\'Orian Royal Heir Davejohnsan wrote:

He attempted to detonate a bomb, but failed miserably. But he didn't fail as much as you are, in this thread, trying to argue semantics when you don't even have your definitions straight. Kindly stop posting in this thread until you have a valid argument that shows you put thought into it and has factual information in it, not information pulled out of your wazoo.

I like the cut of your jib, but you must be new here if you expect varus to make any kind of valid, factual argument.
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#54 Dec 28 2009 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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San d\'Orian Royal Heir Davejohnsan wrote:
Kindly stop posting in this thread until you have a valid argument that shows you put thought into it and has factual information in it, not information pulled out of your wazoo.


Hmm, you don't know Varus very well do you?
#55 Dec 28 2009 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
publiusvarus wrote:
Boy you Democrats will do anything to avoid the issue of islamic terrorism.

Attempted hijacking means he failed. And yes the use of a bomb to take control of a plane is the definition of hijacking. Had he been successful would you have called him a hijacker? He would have taken complete control over the fate of the plane.

Quote:
to seize (a vehicle) by force or threat of force


Thank you for once again proving you care less about dealing with ISLAMIC TERRORISTS than you are about changing the meaning of words to suit your needs.


What does it matter if they agreed that it was a failed hijacking or not?

Ok, Varrus. It was a failed hijacking. The guy tried to hijack the plane by blowing it up. Oh, and he was a Muslim, too. He was a Muslim Terrorist who tried to hijack an airplane by blowing it up.

So what...? What does that change? How does quibbling about the definition of hijack avoid the issue of Islamic terrorism?

Also, does it really only take one insane person to make it Islamic terrorism? I mean, I'm sure that he's espousing Islamic ideology as the reason he did it. Does that mean that the abortion clinic bombings done in the name of the Christian God are acts of Christian terrorism?
#56 Dec 28 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Oh. And Belk? I'm pretty sure they were just checking to see if you brought any "toys" with you on your honeymoon...


Well, they didn't know it was my honeymoon. Smiley: tongue
#57 Dec 28 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Oh. And Belk? I'm pretty sure they were just checking to see if you brought any "toys" with you on your honeymoon...


Well, they didn't know it was my honeymoon.


What travel purpose did you list on your visa application?
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King Nobby wrote:
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#58 Dec 28 2009 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
Hm. Well, I guess I better pick a different target than Varrus.

gbaji wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Hijacking implies some control over the vehicle. A fireball plummeting to the ground is not under any kind of control.


Well... technically if your objective is to send the plane plummeting to the ground in a fiery mass, then I suppose you could call this a hijacking. Kinda. Maybe...


To me, the definition of hijacking an airplane would be to take direct control of it—I don't know if that's the exact definition and whether or not you agree with me, but that's how I feel—and therefore would mean taking control of it by navigating it in the cockpit. By navigating it, you have full control over where the airplane goes, except in the circumstance I'm about to describe.

By successfully detonating a bomb powerful enough, that is taking the control of the plane out of anyone's control. The pilots can't control where the plane goes, and the…well, suspect…can't control where the airplane goes. It just goes down. That said, I hope you can see how I fail to see that bombing an airplane equates to taking direct control of it.

This is just my opinion, not that I see what arguing over this particular subject accomplishes. Smiley: dubious Feel free to disagree with me and counteract my argument if you want.
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#59 Dec 28 2009 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm also unsure how US security has anything to do with this. It was an international flight from Amsterdam to Detroit. The security rules in other countries are different than those in the US, even on international flights traveling into the US. At the very least, if a mistake was made, it wasn't made by TSA, but by whatever equivalent was employed in Amsterdam.

I was originally under the impression that it was US personnel checking folks for the US flight but, thinking back to my trip to Italy... no. It was Italian security I went through. But everyone's talking about US security so... I dunno.

Napolitano's original "system worked" comment was pretty bone-headed, I'll be the first one here to state that and beat you all to the punch.

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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#60 Dec 28 2009 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I was originally under the impression that it was US personnel checking folks for the US flight but, thinking back to my trip to Italy... no. It was Italian security I went through. But everyone's talking about US security so... I dunno.


Because "everyone" includes a whole lot of idiots?

Edited, Dec 28th 2009 3:54pm by gbaji
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King Nobby wrote:
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#61 Dec 28 2009 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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San d\'Orian Royal Heir Davejohnsan wrote:
By successfully detonating a bomb powerful enough, that is taking the control of the plane out of anyone's control. The pilots can't control where the plane goes, and the…well, suspect…can't control where the airplane goes. It just goes down. That said, I hope you can see how I fail to see that bombing an airplane equates to taking direct control of it.


Well it does kinda depend on how you define "control", now doesn't it?


We really do need sarcasm tags...
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King Nobby wrote:
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#62 Dec 28 2009 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
But everyone's talking about US security so... I dunno.
Because "everyone" includes a whole lot of idiots?

Well, this goes back to me holding back until I know more.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#63 Dec 28 2009 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm also unsure how US security has anything to do with this. It was an international flight from Amsterdam to Detroit. The security rules in other countries are different than those in the US, even on international flights traveling into the US.
While I'm not defending the window-licker (dutch or US) who let him on the flight wearing a semtex ball-bag, you are wrong again Mr Gbaji.

Each sovereign nation determines the entry criteria which it expects other countries to police, and agrees to uphold the entry criteria of other nations.

When I fly to USA from blighty, the (usually American, sometimes Brit) security staff make me adhere to US homeland security rules, including documentation and identity searches.

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#64 Dec 28 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Nobby wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm also unsure how US security has anything to do with this. It was an international flight from Amsterdam to Detroit. The security rules in other countries are different than those in the US, even on international flights traveling into the US.
While I'm not defending the window-licker (dutch or US) who let him on the flight wearing a semtex ball-bag, you are wrong again Mr Gbaji.

Each sovereign nation determines the entry criteria which it expects other countries to police, and agrees to uphold the entry criteria of other nations.

When I fly to USA from blighty, the (usually American, sometimes Brit) security staff make me adhere to US homeland security rules, including documentation and identity searches.


Yes. In terms of checking "no fly" lists, and ensuring that paperwork is in order and whatnot. That does not apply to the actual physical security mechanisms in place though. I can state for a fact that I was not required to take my shoes off in either Narita nor Chendgu airports during my last trip. When I went through LAX, they freaking stuck me in the big bubble body scanner thingie.


Since physical security methods are what is presumably in question here, that would seem to be relevant, right? And in any case, if "don't let people get on with a bomb strapped to their legs" is part of the security requirements, and someone got through with a bomb strapped to his leg, it's not the fault of the guys who made the "no bomb" rule, but with the guys who failed to catch the guy with the bomb, right?
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King Nobby wrote:
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#65 Dec 28 2009 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
Jesus christ publiusvarus you are an idiot. Your views are just retarded. Hell I am a republican and I think you are the dumbest person I have ever had the displeasure of running across. There was no hijacking attempt, just some guy who decided to blow up his leg... Btw that also sounds retarded, but that is a different matter.

Airport security inside the US is pretty good, its when you go outside the US that you find it becomes a little more lacking. At least thats what I have found in most of the major airports. (DFW and DIA have amazing securty.) They need to staff TSA officers at the entrance to terminals bound for US flights. And, while it may be more annoying, have people rechecked on flights on the last stop before they head towards US soil.
#66 Dec 28 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
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lightningcount wrote:
They need to staff TSA officers at the entrance to terminals bound for US flights.


There may be some legal and/or sovereignity issues with this.

Quote:
And, while it may be more annoying, have people rechecked on flights on the last stop before they head towards US soil.


They do. Unless you're on the same plane (which doesn't normally happen on longer international flights), you have to go back through security to get from the arrival area to the departure area. I can't say for certain that this is done everywhere in the world, but I would assume so.

At the end of the day, the bigger issue is whether or not you can detect explosive components being carried on someone's person. And frankly, it's amazing to me that there haven't been more attempts, and more successful attempts in this area.
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#67 Dec 28 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
And frankly, it's amazing to me that there haven't been more attempts, and more successful attempts in this area.
I don't know why you think it's amazing that people with more at stake are less likely to engage in suicide bombings...
#68 Dec 28 2009 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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MDenham wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And frankly, it's amazing to me that there haven't been more attempts, and more successful attempts in this area.
I don't know why you think it's amazing that people with more at stake are less likely to engage in suicide bombings...
Smiley: dubiouswtf?

I figure there haven't been more because it isn't directed enough to make it worth it? I don't know, they fail the tests all the time, so it's not like all the security is really that good.
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#69 Dec 28 2009 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
Gbaji wrote:
The rules they're cooking up right now are pretty much silly overreactions of course. But that's par for the course I suppose.


It could be worse, they could be instituting Patriot Act II.
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#70REDACTED, Posted: Dec 29 2009 at 8:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sandy,
#71 Dec 29 2009 at 9:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#72 Dec 29 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Smiley: laugh


I know, right? Bless his heart.

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#73 Dec 29 2009 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
Sir Xsarus wrote:
MDenham wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And frankly, it's amazing to me that there haven't been more attempts, and more successful attempts in this area.
I don't know why you think it's amazing that people with more at stake are less likely to engage in suicide bombings...
Smiley: dubiouswtf?
Sorry, one-line explanations are horrible. Anyway:

Regardless of whether or not you think the US going into Iraq and Afghanistan was a good idea, it has given the average person over there more to lose, and therefore has effectively driven up the price of suicide bombings for the average person.

Which means (in what should be obvious) that the average person is therefore less likely to become associated with a group that's going to want them to commit suicide bombings.

Now, these groups don't stick solely to suicide bombings, so this means recruitment is down and they therefore also have fewer people available to engage in operations that require that the person remain alive as long as possible. So, people who would be drawn for the purpose of suicide bombings are instead being funneled into more-traditional combat.

Net result: less people trying to blow up planes in mid-air, more people who aren't from the Middle East being captured/killed by US troops. Which, incidentally, seems to match up decently with what we're seeing. (It's not a perfect match, but keep in mind that the process I'm referring to is being described by someone who really doesn't have any business doing sociopolitical analysis. :-D)
#74 Dec 29 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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And a little red meat for the partisan masses...
ABC News wrote:
Two of the four leaders allegedly behind the al Qaeda plot to blow up a Northwest Airlines passenger jet over Detroit were released by the U.S. from the Guantanamo prison in November, 2007, according to American officials and Department of Defense documents. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the Northwest bombing in a Monday statement that vowed more attacks on Americans.

American officials agreed to send the two terrorists from Guantanamo to Saudi Arabia where they entered into an "art therapy rehabilitation program" and were set free, according to U.S. and Saudi officials.
[...]
Saudi officials concede its program has had its "failures" but insist that, overall, the effort has helped return potential terrorists to a meaningful life.

One program gives the former detainees paints and crayons as part of the rehabilitation regimen.

A similar rehabilitation program in Yemen was stopped because so many of the detainees quickly joined with al Qaeda or its affiliates, the official said.

There ya go. Rather than Obama's risky plan to try these guys in a court and incarcerate them in maximum security prisons, we should go with the Bush/Cheney plan of releasing them with a backpack full of fingerpaints and coloring books..
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#75REDACTED, Posted: Dec 29 2009 at 10:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophiel,
#76 Dec 29 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
publiusvarus wrote:
Oh and glad to hear you're finally recognizing that Clinton was responsible for 911 by not taking Bin Laden when the Sudanese offered him up.



The only ones responsible for 9/11 were the assholes who hijacked the planes and the people who gave them the monetary support to do so, you fucktard. It wasn't Clinton's fault, and it wasn't Bush's fault.
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