TippingFollow

I'd really have to see a citation on the legality of this. As far as I was aware, it's something you agree to once you continue to do your business there after reading the menu.



Edited, Nov 19th 2009 8:41pm by CBD

Well, yeah, if you get a young, happy, wealthy table. Mommy + daddy + kids + grandma and grandpa aren't going to be that great to serve.



"Difficulty" != time spent. Not sure who told you that, but they were wrong.

You're also over simplifying this with "EIGHT SINGLES OR ONE TABLE OF EIGHT?!" Not that you distilling a situation into equally absurd extremes is anything new.

Edited, Nov 19th 2009 8:47pm by CBD

None myself. I thought I mentioned that earlier. I do know a whole lot of people who've worked in the field though (which I know I mentioned). Every single one has said the same things. The right to get first dibs on big tables is something you work hard for in that field. A good waiter will make much much more money over an evening working large tables than small ones. That's why it's preferred. And sure, you have to be "good" at your job to handle them, but it's more than worth it in the amount of tips you get over time and total effort.


Instead of asking me over and over what my credentials are, how about you answer the question I posed:

If you have a choice to work 8 tables with one person at each, or one table with 8 people, which would you pick?

I have no idea why someone wouldn't easily be able to figure out the ~20% tipping value.

Wrong. Everything on a bill is legally negotiable right up to the moment you pay the bill. And the tip absolutely is.

You're confusing a notification that they're calculating your tip for you with some kind of legal requirement to pay it. It's still a gratuity. And while I'll accept the possibility of some local ordinance mandating such tips somewhere, the common definition of "gratuity" means that it's optional and voluntary. It's not a gratuity if you're required to pay it. If they call it a gratuity, then by assumption you have the right to change the amount if you don't agree with it.


I'm not sure why this is even a subject of debate.

We've had threads about tipping on this forum before. It's always surprising to see how many people don't calculate tips as a percentage of the bill, but just pay some set amount every time. You'd think that wouldn't be the case, but it is.


Why do you think they do this (add the gratuity to the bill) if not because large parties frequently fail to calculate the tip properly? It's kinda the first and only reasonable assumption, isn't it?

It's to combat sticker shock.

When a family of 8 realizes they just dropped $120 on Timmy's birthday, the parents usually go through an "oh ****!!" moment and scrimp on the tip.

Which is a wonderful explanation of why many restaurants automatically calculate and add tips to the bill for larger parties.

Your statement fails to refute the point I made though. The tip percentage may be higher per bill, but the amount of time and effort to get a given dollars worth of bill is higher at smaller tables as well. There's an overhead of time and effort for each table worked. If the tables have fewer people at them, then you have to work more of them in order to have the same dollar amount of bill from which that tip is calculated.

The average cost of a dish is the same whether there are 4 people at a table or 8. But, as I've repeatedly stated, it quite obviously takes less time to fill 8 glasses at one table than at 8, and to take 8 orders at one table than at 8, or to bring 8 dished to one table than at 8, etc, etc, etc...

That efficiency outweighs everything else, assuming that the large party doesn't stiff you on the tip, of course. Which is why they add it to the bill. It doesn't change the fact that everything else being equal, the smart wait staff take on a smaller number of large tables if they have the choice.




Than what? 1 table of 8?

Would you rather have 2 tables of 4, or 4 tables of 2? Cause that would seem to be relevant...

Um... That's exactly what they did though (minus the not paying any of it bit). They went to the manager, explained that the service was horrible and they were not going to pay for the gratuity. They then sat there with the manager and calculated the correct amount of the bill minus the gratuity and paid that amount. The manager pretended to go along with this, but presumably was stalling until the cops arrived because before the couple could walk out, they were arrested.


I'm not saying they can just ignore the bill for their food. I'm saying that they can do exactly what you suggested and explain that they don't feel they should pay the full gratuity and deduct that from the bill. The couple in question did exactly that and were arrested for it. Hence, my position that it should be completely legal to do what they did. A gratuity is not mandatory.

No, it isn't. Smaller tables may sound like more "work and time" to you, but that "work and time" equates to a couple more trips back to the kitchen. That isn't a big deal.

If you want to discuss efficiency and time sinks then consider the time spent at a table by a party. Because the number of tables a server has is usually fixed, the amount of money a waiter can bring in is directly related to how quickly a table can be rotated. Bigger parties end up "camping" tables. They will sit there for usually twice as long as a smaller parties. That alone makes them undesirable enough.



2 tables of 4, as tables of 4 usually leave faster than tables of 2. You see a lot of dating couples in those tables of 2, and they tend to stick around for a long time as well.

I'll buy that as well. In any case, the point is to put the obligation on the customer to reduce the tip if he wants (with all the attendant assumptions that may bring) rather than hope the customer correctly pays the full amount. They're banking on the fact that most people are not going to refute the tip amount calculated for them on the bill, no matter how much or for what reason they might normally pay less.


It still doesn't make it mandatory though. You just have to take a deliberate action to reduce the tip they calculated for you. Legally, you shouldn't be obligated to pay it if you really don't want to.

Gbaji isn't answering the question because he doesn't have any serving experience, therefore he's not an authority on the topic and he doesn't like that.

I don't claim to be an authority either, but I do know a fair amount, as my bf was a server for two years up until he was recently laid off for poor sales percentages (imagine that in this economy!).

He was one of the weird servers that actually liked working large parties, because he did feel that it was less work, and you generally get tipped more. He'd completely avoid the issue with the gratuity thing, by telling his customers he was waiving the 18% required gratuity, and saying that they could tip him whatever they thought he was worth. He'd then work his butt off, and nine times out of ten they'd tip him more than 18%.

Personally I think we should adopt a system like they have in France. Over there they add the tip into the bill, and you are legally required to pay the entire thing. If you want to tip above that, you are welcome to of course. Servers in most of the states here just have it horrible. I seriously don't understand how they make a living wage in right to work states. Oregon isn't one, and because of that servers get paid the full minimum wage and then make tips above and beyond that. My bf would gets bi weekly paychecks that averaged about $200, and have tips beyond that, and we STILL struggled. Granted both of us rather suck at managing money, but still. I really can't fathom how servers who make half of minimum wage survive.

This is not a tip.