Hate Crimes Bill signedFollow

I don't really care how the point gets across if it does, in fact, get across. I'm not a fiction writer, and for a good reason, but I do think the example is a valid illumination of possibility if you aren't reading for the wrong purpose.

If you'd prefer, I can do my normal thing. Because, however, lots of people don't like my normal thing, I try to restrain myself.



Of course



Yup



Of course it does.

Look, the point isn't to question whether or not something is rape, and certainly not whether rape is about dominating another individual who is weaker than you. There is no justification in expecting sex whether you're dating, married, or just some creepy dude in the park, because whenever sex is unwanted, it's rape, by freakin definition. The question here though, is not if rape can constitute a hate crime (because of course it can;) the question is whether rape must constitute a hate crime. The question is of the source and intention of the sexual domination (not just the sex, not just the domination, also.) Is it necessarily the rapists intent to send a message to members of the victim's class, or is it possible to be much more specific to the situation? I'm not sure why it couldn't be.



Could be; I have no idea. That's no reason to prosecute them all as hate crimes though. If creepy dude in the park sees an object of lust, and rapes it, it is his motivation which will decide whether or not the crime was a hate crime (considering that's how they seem to be judged, on motivation.) When you start thinking that all rapes are hate crimes you're already contradicting yourself, and are judging on the action instead of the motivation.

Edited, Oct 30th 2009 11:45am by Pensive

I'm thinking this legislation can be easily circumvented if you stay classy while commiting felonies. Simple things, like not insulting the other persons ethnic group or sexual orientation while you're chasing them down with am automatic.(Or cleaver, for those in the UK.) Keep a calm, cheery disposition in the inevitable court room as well, you'll surely be aquitted of hate crime charges and might even get off due to the appearance of acute psychosis.

No. Unrealistic, but not dangerous.

Obviously your friend and his wife have issues that need to be worked out; obviously sex is being used as a weapon, by her from the sound of it.

She needs to agree to a) sex, b) counseling, or c) extramarital sex for her husband.

Heh, he tried counseling and she said "I have a minor in Psychology, I know what they are going to say already - we dont have to go."

Man, I am so glad I am not him.

Edited, Oct 30th 2009 12:26pm by ManifestOfKujata

Eh, I dunno. Divorce is expensive and custody is a nightmare. I'd go for the affair, personally.

Lol, it is a gross misunderstanding. I was saying if people talked about sex more - and therefore had a better understanding and respect for it - maybe it wouldnt be so taboo. Feelings of shame about a taboo subject can lead to some pretty weird, scary, or downright brutal things. I am not sure how you could possibly extrapolate "a woman should just admit she wants sex" from that. Openly discussing sex doesnt mean just blindly admitting you want sex.

I wasnt saying that a guy meets a girl in a dark alley, they discuss the pros and cons of intercourse, and they both come to a decision on if they are going to have sex right then and there. I meant if that guy felt more comfortable about sex and his own sexuality - at least in a few rape instances - he wouldnt be in that alley to begin with.

Edited, Oct 30th 2009 12:39pm by ManifestOfKujata

I get all that. As I said, I'm not particularly invested in this argument. I could go either way. But my point is, I can see how every rape could be argued to be a hate crime based on the fact that, even in your hypothetical situation, a complete lack of respect and a feeling of superiority at the least is present. And I don't think that those feelings end with the victim.



I'm not sure I understand this. If a "creepy guy" in the park sees something that sparks lust, he might try to pick up that object and take it back for consentual sex. I don't see said creepy guy raping the object of his lust just because he got a hard on. I mean, think about it. Rape can't be easy, exactly. You've got a struggling human beneath you, kicking, screaming, you've got to remove clothing from their struggling body and deflect their raining blows. I'm not sure that would be worth it for a couple minute hump and poke, and I would think that someone who was just horny would lose his erection. You've got to actually enjoy the struggle in order to rape someone, in my opinion.

I realize that you've got the "date rape" drugs, and there isn't much struggle in that situation, but I still think that for anyone to rape another human would speak of an underlying "hatred" (for lack of a better word) for the gender to which they are directing their attentions. That is, of course, just my opinion.

Edited, Oct 30th 2009 11:49am by Belkira

I took a conditional exception to your comment on expecting sex in marriage - not rape in marriage. There is a huge difference.

I believe it is dangerous to suggest its ok for someone to just say "I am done having sex in this marriage." Dangerous for the marriage, dangerous because that could lead to rape in marriage. It would be more productive to just tell that person to get divorced, or to allow their partner to have sex with others.

Oh, I dont disagree that its mostly about power, and in the large percentage of cases it is. But studies do suggest that **** has lowered the rape rates somewhat - if its possible to lower rape rates with ****, I would argue that those avoided rapes probably didnt have anything to do with power because, well, **** doesnt satisfy that. Maybe something biological?

Or he could just have sex with that object right then and there.

Sorry, I saw "sex with objects" and it reminded me of this story that happened in my area a few weeks ago. Gumball machine FTW!

Yeah, I think I might have to ask you guys to stop half way through.

Well look that's fine, long as you understand what I'm saying, and vice versa, and I do. Doesn't matter if you end up agreeing, mainly because neither of us are legislators

Or just frankly endorse it! Georgia senators, you know.