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150 years since the Origin of Species...Follow

#1 Sep 28 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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And the crazies are already out and about. Kirk Cameron, best known as Mike Seaver from Growing Pains, is spear-heading an effort to hand out 50,000 copies of "Origin of Species" at campuses around the country... with a 50 page introduction talking about:

Quote:
-The history of evolution
-A timeline of Darwin's life
-Adolf Hitler's undeniable connection with the theory
-Darwin's racism
-His disdain for women
-Darwin's thoughts on the existence of God
-Lists the theory's many hoaxes, like the unscientific belief that nothing created everything...
-It then presents a balanced view of creationism with information from scientists


When I started watching the video, I was convinced this was tongue-in-cheek for the first two minutes or so. Now I'm just shaking my head, thinking "Oh, crazy people..." I am curious to read the book's introduction, if they came to UF, just to see what the evidence they present is for creationism. Hopefully UF is large enough to get some folks handing out books!
#2 Sep 28 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm almost certain the intro is available as a PDF somewhere but I'll leave it to you to track it down. Personally, I think Cameron is a nut but at least he's not in politics. 99% of the books will be taken for kitsch value anyway and 40% will wind up on eBay.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#3 Sep 28 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
I like how he calls atheism a "brainwashing."

Smiley: lol
#4 Sep 29 2009 at 5:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I would rather catch a student reading "The Tao of Physics" than "The Gospel".

Kinda LOL at bible thumpers pointing out the sexism & racism of Darwin...
has he read the Bible ?

#5 Sep 29 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
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Only 50,000 copies?

Slacker.
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#6 Sep 29 2009 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
Nevermind that Hitler used Christianity to further his ends far far far more than he did Darwinism.
#7 Sep 29 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I wonder if I will see one of these distributors on my campus? We've had groups like 40daysforlife before.
#8 Sep 29 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Nevermind that Hitler used Christianity to further his ends far far far more than he did Darwinism.

Nonsense. Hitler was a liberal and they're all dirty atheists.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#9 Sep 29 2009 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Nevermind that Hitler used Christianity to further his ends far far far more than he did Darwinism.


You act as if the two are contradictory.
#10 Sep 29 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Nevermind that Hitler used Christianity to further his ends far far far more than he did Darwinism.


You act as if the two are contradictory.


The assumption here is that the use of the word Christianity is referring to "intelligent design". Given that assumption, in most respects, they are absolutely contradictory. It's true that some blending of scientific theory and faith does occur by unusually enlightened members of the clergy, but for the most part, intelligent design and the theory of evolution ("natural selection") are mutually exclusive.
#11 Sep 29 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The assumption here is that the use of the word Christianity is referring to "intelligent design".


I did not make that assumption, but I'll continue with it.

Quote:
but for the most part, intelligent design and the theory of evolution ("natural selection") are mutually exclusive.


In logic? Perhaps.

In practice? Rarely.

People conflate descriptive evolution with prescriptive evolution all of the time, and lots and lots of the people who I hear espouse social, prescriptive, evolution - that only the fittest should survive, rather than do survive - are either hardcore Christians, or hardcore nihilists. It's perfectly expected, if perhaps not (perhaps, I'm not sure I agree) that someone influenced by fascism, and that influence doesn't have to be overt, to be simultaneously "christian" and "darwinist." God may have designed me to just be ******* awesome and better than everyone, so it is my right to survive because I am fittest.

Now we can tell a story about how someone isn't really darwinist, because they don't understand all of the science and hands-off approach of observing, rather than actively working toward eugenic perfection, but we can tell the same story about how the same person doesn't really get what it means to be christian, because of a failure to understand the history of the religion. What I mean is that, it's a losing game to ask whether hitler was influenced more by christ or more by darwin. By no charitable appraisal of either will anyone think that they can devolve to such brutality.
#12 Sep 29 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
You act as if the two are contradictory.

In what possible way did she imply this?

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 4:01pm by Allegory
#13 Sep 29 2009 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
You act as if the two are contradictory.

In what possible did she imply this?


In the reading of "I use x more than y" being similar to "I use x but not y." Precisely, in that x is significant but y is not at all. The statement itself carries not contradictory denotation, but connotes a sort of um... norm that, because of x, y isn't there.

That's just my reading allegory, and she's more than welcome to correct it.
#14 Sep 29 2009 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
In the reading of "I use x more than y" being similar to "I use x but not y." Precisely, in that x is significant but y is not at all. The statement itself carries not contradictory denotation, but connotes a sort of um... norm that, because of x, y isn't there.

That's just my reading allegory, and she's more than welcome to correct it.

That's not a reasonable interpretation of what she said.

Catwho stated Hitler used Christianity more than ideas drawn from evolution, with the obvious implication that he did not not use evolution at all, therefore he necessarily used both to further his agenda.

The stage used both steel and wooden supports, but steel carried far more of the weight than wood. That is Catwho's statement.

Any extrapolation about evolution not being a meaningful part of Hitler's agenda is purely speculative.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 4:11pm by Allegory
#15 Sep 29 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pensive wrote:
...
Allegory wrote:
...

I swear to God, you two could fuck up a 20-some with the Dallas Cheerleaders.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#16 Sep 29 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I swear to God, you two could fuck up a 20-some with the Dallas Cheerleaders.

I don't see how. I would be adamant about not interacting in any way that could reasonably taint the observational data.
#17 Sep 29 2009 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I swear to God, you two could fuck up a 20-some with the Dallas Cheerleaders.

I don't see how. I would be adamant about not interacting in any way that could reasonably taint the observational data.
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#18 Sep 29 2009 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
People conflate descriptive evolution with prescriptive evolution all of the time, and lots and lots of the people who I hear espouse social, prescriptive, evolution - that only the fittest should survive, rather than do survive - are either hardcore Christians, or hardcore nihilists. It's perfectly expected, if perhaps not (perhaps, I'm not sure I agree) that someone influenced by fascism, and that influence doesn't have to be overt, to be simultaneously "christian" and "darwinist." God may have designed me to just be @#%^ing awesome and better than everyone, so it is my right to survive because I am fittest.


What?

"Prescriptive evolution" as you call it has nothing to do with Darwin or the theory of natural selection. It's a human social construct. Someone who follows such a philosophy can be in no correct way considered a Darwinist. It's a blatant mis-classification.
#19 Sep 29 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I swear to God, you two could fuck up a 20-some with the Dallas Cheerleaders.

I don't see how. I would be adamant about not interacting in any way that could reasonably taint the observational data.


And you'd be pretty much guaranteed not to observe any taint.
#20 Sep 29 2009 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Pensive wrote:
...
Allegory wrote:
...

I swear to God, you two could fuck up a 20-some with the Dallas Cheerleaders.

needs moar yell leaders.
#21 Sep 29 2009 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I swear to God, you two could fuck up a 20-some with the Dallas Cheerleaders.

I don't see how. I would be adamant about not interacting in any way that could reasonably taint the observational data.


And I wouldn't want to observe it in the first place.

Allegory wrote:
Any extrapolation about evolution not being a meaningful part of Hitler's agenda is purely speculative.


You've never heard a sentence like that be used to minimize the importance of something? It really doesn't matter until she replies, but I absolutely can use that form of sentence to infer a sort of inverse relationship.

Stubs wrote:
"Prescriptive evolution" as you call it has nothing to do with Darwin or the theory of natural selection.


Nor does most of the Christian doctrine that we see used to placate nations or to act as political tools, have to do anything with Christ or his theory of soteriology.

Unless you're actively looking for it.

Which was the point.
#22 Sep 29 2009 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
You've never heard a sentence like that be used to minimize the importance of something? It really doesn't matter until she replies, but I absolutely can use that form of sentence to infer a sort of inverse relationship.

It can be, but it doesn't necessarily follow and she hasn't done so yet. Therefore you are presuming far too much.

Most likely Catwho is only mocking the video for mentioning the link between evolutionary ideas and Hitler in order to promote a cause, Christianity, which she believes Hitler used to a far greater extent. I do not see how that is not the most reasonable interpretation.
#23 Sep 29 2009 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Therefore you are presuming far too much.


Then I don't know what the argument is about, because I have conceded that it is entirely possible that I am incorrect, or at least thought I did. Let me check.

Yep, I did.
#24 Sep 29 2009 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't really matter if Hitler believed in and promoted evolution. It has nothing to do with the validity of the theory or the current struggle today. It's just Godwinning.
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Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#25 Sep 29 2009 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
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Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
It doesn't really matter if Hitler believed in and promoted evolution. It has nothing to do with the validity of the theory or the current struggle today. It's just Godwinning.


Hitler breathed oxygen.

You ****.
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#26 Sep 29 2009 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Hitler was a vegetarian.
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