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More Evidence That Torture Doesn't WorkFollow

#227 Sep 28 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
I can't believe you're willing to engage in these rambling, pointless, sparring matches with gbaji but you refuse to have an intellectually arousing discussion about the nature of altruism with me.
He's the woman who's always "like a sister" to you, but who gladly puts her ****** on display for the resident neanderthal.



Edited, Sep 28th 2009 11:15pm by Sweetums
#228 Sep 28 2009 at 8:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
He's the woman who's always "like a sister" to you, but who gladly puts her ****** on display for the resident neanderthal.


I was saving myself for Kavekk, but gbaji took me by force. You'll never see the marks though, because it's a rape of my soul.

Kavekk wrote:
Sadly, I think gbaji's knowledge of torture methods is a bit rusty.


Shall I remind you of the difference between knowledge of fact and knowledge of procedure? For gbaji may have none of the first but lots of the second.

Edited, Sep 29th 2009 12:26am by Pensive
#229 Sep 28 2009 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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Sometimes Pensive's misinterpretations make the universe cry.
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#230 Sep 28 2009 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Sometimes Pensive's misinterpretations make the universe cry.


You're just still sore that I applied epistemology to your physics.
#231 Sep 28 2009 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
I was referring specifically to the latter, actually. Gbaji doesn;t strike me as the kind to take too keen an interest in the things he advocates.
#232 Sep 28 2009 at 9:35 PM Rating: Good
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I was joking, insinuating that he tortures people by writing at them.

It's my one point of solidarity with gbaji. I have to celebrate it sometimes.
#233 Sep 28 2009 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Stateing that you think someone should be fired


Give me a break. Where did anyone state that?

Seriously, grow some balls. You acted like a ****, and got called out on it. It doesn't mean anyone want you to get fired. But if you dish out abuse, you should be able to take it back without nuking posts or threatening to ban people.

Once again, I'm not sure why the Asylum rules should apply to everyone but you. My take on all this is that you either interact as a poster, and therefore use the tools of a poster, or you interact as an admin, which imposes some restraints. But switching those two hats depending on how butthurt you are is not only childish but also hypocritical.

That's about it. It's not personal, it's not a vendetta, it's just simple common sense.

Quote:
My statement to you RedPhoenixxx was more in relation to the fact that I wasn't calling you names, there was no real reason for you to do so


Well, technically you called me a "liberal bedwetting pinko hipp(y)". Surely, trolling brings forth reactions. That's pretty much the whole point, no?

Anyway, I'm perfectly happy to continue this by PM if you think it's more appropriate.


Edited, Sep 29th 2009 11:05am by RedPhoenixxx
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#234 Sep 29 2009 at 1:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Well, BT did, but he doesn't really count as a person.

On a side note, this is a pretty exciting time in European politics, eh? The Lib Dems have overtaken Labour in polls, Ireland's going to ratify the Lisbon treaty, and, er... Merkel won again? I guess that last bit isn't that exciting - nor, come to think of it, is the first piece. Sickening would probably be a better term. The two parties are just going to strangle each other while the tories commit miscellaneous evil acts.
#235 Sep 29 2009 at 1:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Kavekk wrote:
Well, BT did, but he doesn't really count as a person.


It's funny because I wrote that post first thing this morning. Then I went to have a shower, and in the shower I thought "Hmm, actually, come to think of it, maybe BT did call for Kao to lose his job... but well, BT doesn't count as a person."

So yeah, great minds and whatnot.

Quote:
On a side note, this is a pretty exciting time in European politics, eh? The Lib Dems have overtaken Labour in polls, Ireland's going to ratify the Lisbon treaty, and, er... Merkel won again? I guess that last bit isn't that exciting - nor, come to think of it, is the first piece. Sickening would probably be a better term. The two parties are just going to strangle each other while the tories commit miscellaneous evil acts.


Lib Dems overtaking Labour doesn't mean all that much. In fact, until the voting system goes from FPTP to PR, nothing the Lib-Dems do will ever matter very much. Unless, I suppose, we get a hung Parliament where the Lib-Dems enter a coaltion and force the other party to change the voting system to PR as a condition for their entering the coalition. But that's not going to happen in the next Parliament, so it's all very theoretical.

Merkel winning is a good thing, overall. I like her. German politis is a tiny bit boring, though. The biggest story in this election was about how the finance minister, this 38-year old aristocrat part-time DJ, was really popular, and he was a DJ, and an aristocrat. Super.

Ireland ratifying Lisbon is good, I suppose. Although I personally think Lisbon < Treaty, it's still a good thing. Though I don't know if you've heard, but there are rumours that Cameron will try to sink the whole thing regardless of how the Irish vote. Probably by submitting Lisbon to a referendum. Though it would require balls of steel for him to do that, and I'm not sure he's got them.
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#236 Sep 29 2009 at 1:54 AM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
The difference is that I'm willing to accept that those who do have said experience might just know what they're talking about. The UN Commission on Torture specifically has not categorized waterboarding as torture, despite dozens of opportunities to do so. Our own opinions on the issue, expressed in this very thread, indicate that waterboarding is not viewed to be nearly as harsh as techniques which are defined by the UN as torture.


I think it should be pretty clear to anyone who's been on this forum for any length of time that gbaji's main argument technique rests on the assumption that other posters are too lazy to check his "facts".

The UN Commission on Torture has not specifically categorised waterboarding as torture because there is no such thing as a permanent "UN Commission on Torture". So yes, an inexistant body can hardly categorise something as anything.

I don't mind giving you the benefit of the doubt and maybe you meant to refer to the "UN Committee against Torture", whose role it is to oversee the implementation of the Convention Against Torture by member states. It's the only body whose opinion matters, since they are the "guardian" of the Convention.

In which case, the UN Committee Against Torture has explicitly condemned waterboarding as "torture", in its Conclusion and recommendations of the Committee to the U.S., July 25, 2006, paragraph 24:

Quote:
The State party should rescind any interrogation technique, including methods involving sexual humiliation, “waterboarding”, “short shackling” and using dogs to induce fear, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, in all places of detention under its de facto effective control, in order to comply with its obligations under the Convention.


I don't think I need to bold anything from that statement, it's pretty obvious.

So that's this part of the debate settled. Waterboarding is explicitly considered as "torture" by the UN Committe Against Torture.

Still, it was worth a try, I suppose.


Edited, Sep 29th 2009 10:09am by RedPhoenixxx
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#237 Sep 29 2009 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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Lib Dems overtaking Labour doesn't mean all that much. In fact, until the voting system goes from FPTP to PR, nothing the Lib-Dems do will ever matter very much. Unless, I suppose, we get a hung Parliament where the Lib-Dems enter a coaltion and force the other party to change the voting system to PR as a condition for their entering the coalition. But that's not going to happen in the next Parliament, so it's all very theoretical.


Well, it doesn't matter very much as in lib-dems-getting-into-power, but they can certainly harm Labour's ability to seriously contest the conservatives for a while by robbing them of a few close seats. It might lead to more public support for PR, though, if it drags on enough. I can maybe see the tories agreeing to PR to forma government, but it'd hurt labour too much in the long term.

Quote:
Merkel winning is a good thing, overall. I like her. German politis is a tiny bit boring, though. The biggest story in this election was about how the finance minister, this 38-year old aristocrat part-time DJ, was really popular, and he was a DJ, and an aristocrat. Super.


Merkel herself is a rather boring person, also. I largely agree with her stated aims, but she's no Berlusconi.

Quote:
Ireland ratifying Lisbon is good, I suppose. Although I personally think Lisbon < Treaty, it's still a good thing. Though I don't know if you've heard, but there are rumours that Cameron will try to sink the whole thing regardless of how the Irish vote. Probably by submitting Lisbon to a referendum. Though it would require balls of steel for him to do that, and I'm not sure he's got them.


I've heard about it a bit. Does he really care that much about it either way? Ultra-tories are agitating about it a bit on the blogosphere (predictably characterising the EU as *****), but is appeasing them really worth Sarkozy screaming at him through the telephone every day? If the Czechs only delay 6 months, then the treaty will be in force by he time he's in power. It really would take balls of steel to try and de-ratify it then.
#238 Sep 29 2009 at 2:53 AM Rating: Good
Kavekk wrote:
Well, it doesn't matter very much as in lib-dems-getting-into-power, but they can certainly harm Labour's ability to seriously contest the conservatives for a while by robbing them of a few close seats. It might lead to more public support for PR, though, if it drags on enough. I can maybe see the tories agreeing to PR to forma government, but it'd hurt labour too much in the long term.


Labour is just reaching the end of its political cycle. The fact they're getting overtaken by the Lib-Dems now, doesn't mean much. If it's still the case in 4 years time, then it might be worrisome, but I doubt that'll be the case. Labour needs new people, new ideas, and time in the wilderness, and they'll come back. Also, they need to let the Tories do their thing and remind people what a bunch of snobbish twats they really are. All in good time.

I'm not hopeful on the UK ever having PR, unfortunately. For it to happen, one of the two big ones would have to agree to it, and this will not happen unless there is a seismic shift in UK politics.

Quote:
I've heard about it a bit. Does he really care that much about it either way? Ultra-tories are agitating about it a bit on the blogosphere (predictably characterising the EU as *****), but is appeasing them really worth Sarkozy screaming at him through the telephone every day? If the Czechs only delay 6 months, then the treaty will be in force by he time he's in power. It really would take balls of steel to try and de-ratify it then.


I don't think Cameron cares that much. In fact, I don't think he's especially eurosceptic himself. But a large part of his party is, and he's still dependent on those dinosaurs. They are asking for a referendum on Lisbon, and it's a possibility that he will do it. It's not likely, but it's possible. If he does do it, however, and the Treaty has come into force, it could force a huge issue. Other EU countries will be super-pissed off, and it'll bring back the whole "Should the UK even be in the EU" debate.

Personally, I think the likelihood is that he'll say something along the lines of "We don't like this Treaty, but it came into force before we could do anything, so let's just move on, LA LA LA LA..."


Edited, Sep 29th 2009 10:58am by RedPhoenixxx
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#239 Sep 29 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
Did you catch Brown's speech, by the way? I thought it was good for a Brown speech, although the phrase "mainstream majority" makes me unreasonably angry.

Quote:
Labour is just reaching the end of its political cycle. The fact they're getting overtaken by the Lib-Dems now, doesn't mean much. If it's still the case in 4 years time, then it might be worrisome, but I doubt that'll be the case. Labour needs new people, new ideas, and time in the wilderness, and they'll come back. Also, they need to let the Tories do their thing and remind people what a bunch of snobbish twats they really are. All in good time.


I just wish the tories reminding people what twats they are wouldn't involve them ripping an already underfunded higher education system apart while I'm in it. Couldn't we just sneak a guy with a camera into their pleb hunting grounds or something?
#240 Sep 29 2009 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
Kavekk wrote:
Did you catch Brown's speech, by the way? I thought it was good for a Brown speech, although the phrase "mainstream majority" makes me unreasonably angry.


Bits of it. It was ok, but watching makes me kinda sad. He looks like he's going to die pretty soon. Also, he's clearly on some form of anti-depressant.

Quote:
I just wish the tories reminding people what twats they are wouldn't involve them ripping an already underfunded higher education system apart while I'm in it. Couldn't we just sneak a guy with a camera into their pleb hunting grounds or something?


Yeah, the University system is pretty messed up already, but I think Labour are somewhat to blame. I know they're trying to "make UK Universities competitive on the interntional market", but that's ********* Introducing tuition fees was a bit of a disgrace. You shouldn't leave Uni with £10K of debt. I do feel sorry for young people nowadays. If they're low/middle class, and do everything right, they'll come out of Uni with a Bachelors degree at 22, with £10K's worth of a debt. In order to own a flat, they'll need to clear those £10K, and then somehow find another £20K for a deposit. How anyone can save upwards of £30K whilst living in London, is completely beyond me.

I think we're slowly moving towards an American system of University. Which has its advantages for the very smart or the very rich, but which kinda sucks for the rest.

So, yeah, good luck mate!
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#241 Sep 29 2009 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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You shouldn't leave Uni with £10K of debt. I do feel sorry for young people nowadays. If they're low/middle class, and do everything right, they'll come out of Uni with a Bachelors degree at 22, with £10K's worth of a debt.


This would be a relatively low debt for US higher education.

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#242 Sep 29 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
You shouldn't leave Uni with £10K of debt. I do feel sorry for young people nowadays. If they're low/middle class, and do everything right, they'll come out of Uni with a Bachelors degree at 22, with £10K's worth of a debt.


This would be a relatively low debt for US higher education.


Yeah, that's why I think we're moving towards a US system. The tuition fees that University can charge are currently capped at around £3K/year, but they're going to increase the cap to £5K, and probably scrap it altogether one day.

I'm not a big fan of this, but considering the state of the UK economy, there's no going back now.
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#243 Sep 29 2009 at 7:51 AM Rating: Good
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It's much easier to keep someone satisfied with a laughably low end job with enough debt such they can't afford to not have it.
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#244 Sep 29 2009 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
Timelordwho wrote:
It's much easier to keep someone satisfied with a laughably low end job with enough debt such they can't afford to not have it.


Indeed, especially when coupled with ridiculously overpriced accomodations.

On the plus side, if you manage to squat somewhere for a decade, then it's legally yours! Maybe.
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#245 Sep 29 2009 at 5:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Stateing that you think someone should be fired


Give me a break. Where did anyone state that?

Seriously, grow some balls. You acted like a ****, and got called out on it. It doesn't mean anyone want you to get fired. But if you dish out abuse, you should be able to take it back without nuking posts or threatening to ban people.

Once again, I'm not sure why the Asylum rules should apply to everyone but you. My take on all this is that you either interact as a poster, and therefore use the tools of a poster, or you interact as an admin, which imposes some restraints. But switching those two hats depending on how butthurt you are is not only childish but also hypocritical.

That's about it. It's not personal, it's not a vendetta, it's just simple common sense.


I really don't give a **** what your oppinion of my actions were. Perhaps if you repeat comments about balls a few more times they will somehow become magically relevant. I will repeat, if you don't like how I operate on the forum, find another ******* board. In the Asylum I will interact however I damn well see fit and if that is not to your likeing, you can quite frankly blow it out your ***.

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#246 Sep 29 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Default
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I don't mind giving you the benefit of the doubt and maybe you meant to refer to the "UN Committee against Torture", whose role it is to oversee the implementation of the Convention Against Torture by member states. It's the only body whose opinion matters, since they are the "guardian" of the Convention.


Yes. Geez. I've been busy so sue me for not looking up the exact name. Were you unclear what I was talking about?

Quote:
In which case, the UN Committee Against Torture has explicitly condemned waterboarding as "torture", in its Conclusion and recommendations of the Committee to the U.S., July 25, 2006, paragraph 24:

Quote:
The State party should rescind any interrogation technique, including methods involving sexual humiliation, “waterboarding”, “short shackling” and using dogs to induce fear, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, in all places of detention under its de facto effective control, in order to comply with its obligations under the Convention.


I don't think I need to bold anything from that statement, it's pretty obvious.


Only to those with a less than complete grasp of the English language.

Quote:
So that's this part of the debate settled. Waterboarding is explicitly considered as "torture" by the UN Committe Against Torture.


No. It's not. That language only lists a set of techniques which should not be used in a manner which could be in violation of the treaty. It does not say that their use always is. It's a warning to be careful when using techniques which, if used improperly, would constitute torture.

Read it again with an open mind and you'll (hopefully) see what I'm talking about.
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#247 Sep 29 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kaolian best be trolling. Otherwise he's getting laughably defensive.

-------------------
Quote:
Quote:
The State party should rescind any interrogation technique, including methods involving sexual humiliation, “waterboarding”, “short shackling” and using dogs to induce fear, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, in all places of detention under its de facto effective control, in order to comply with its obligations under the Convention.


No. It's not. That language only lists a set of techniques which should not be used in a manner which could be in violation of the treaty. It does not say that their use always is. It's a warning to be careful when using techniques which, if used improperly, would constitute torture.

Read it again with an open mind and you'll (hopefully) see what I'm talking about.


Quote:
The State party should rescind any interrogation technique, including methods involving sexual humiliation, “waterboarding”, “short shackling” and using dogs to induce fear, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, in all places of detention under its de facto effective control, in order to comply with its obligations under the Convention.
Quote:
rescind any interrogation technique, including “waterboarding”, that constitutes torture


...rescind any interrogation technique that constitutes torture, including “waterboarding”.

Clarified for those who don't understand comma usage.



Edited, Sep 29th 2009 9:54pm by Timelordwho
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#248 Sep 29 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I really don't give a sh*t what your oppinion of my actions were. Perhaps if you repeat comments about balls a few more times they will somehow become magically relevant. I will repeat, if you don't like how I operate on the forum, find another @#%^ing board. In the Asylum I will interact however I damn well see fit and if that is not to your likeing, you can quite frankly blow it out your ***.

Or, he can quite frankly post about it, which is what he's been doing.



Incidentally, I was watching The Office reruns tonight, and I can't believe I never realized before how precisely Kaolian behaves like Dwight.

#249 Sep 29 2009 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Kaolian tends to contradict himself, in terms of his conduct versus his expectations of everyone else's, to seem more manly. Also, his opinion is dumb.
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#250 Sep 29 2009 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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And you feel the need to attempt to psychoanalyze people to deflect attention away from your own shortcomings whilst drasticly overimporting your own self worth. You are also apperently not very good at it.
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#251 Sep 29 2009 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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This is like when Malfoy gets made prefect.
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