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#202 Sep 11 2009 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Existing regulations on Medicare and other federal health programs bar illegal immigrants from accessing them. Even without an explicit mechanism in the new legislation, the Congressional Research Service concluded that the commissioner of the program would have to come up with one.

NPR Health Blog wrote:
Republican Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina, generated a lot of heat for shouting, "You lie," after President Obama said that none of the proposals would apply to illegal immigrants Wednesday night.

But was Wilson right?

The charge that a health expansion would benefit people in this country illegally has become a rallying point for some opponents of an overhaul. What's the real deal?

We talked with some analysts at the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan outfit that's been on top of the issue for a while, to sort through the fact and fiction. The bottom line, they told us, is the legislation proposed to date makes clear that undocumented residents of the US wouldn't be eligible for federally subsidized benefits under an overhaul.

What's not spelled out yet is how a person's immigration and citizenship status would be verified. The absence of an explicit enforcement mechanism is what appears to have opponents riled up.

If an overhaul goes through anything like the current plans, a federal mandate would require everyone to have health insurance. For those who don't get it at work or qualify for a government alternative, such as Medicaid, the final stop would probably be one of the new insurance marketplaces or exchanges.

If you're illegal, you could buy insurance there, as long as you pay the full freight--no direct federal subsidies allowed. The proposals already describe the income checks necessary to get helping hand on coverage. But, Jennifer Tolbert, a policy analyst at Kaiser says, "there's no language that indicates whether or how immigration status or citizen status will be verified."

That doesn't mean there won't be any once it comes time to implement the exchanges, she says. "There are obviously going to be federal guidelines," she explains. It's also possible, given the hubbub, that further work in the Senate Finance Committee or later in conference could clarify the situation.

But that may not be necessary. The Congressional Research Service took a look at the illegal immigrant question last month and concluded that even without an explicit enforcement mechanism in a leading House bill, a commissioner overseeing the exchanges would be responsible for coming up with one. Wilson invoked the report today to support his position, but we read it differently.

It's worth bearing in mind that Medicare and Medicaid have long barred the participation of illegal immigrants other than for emergency services. Even legal non-citizens, such as refugees or folks with a green card, can't sign on to Medicaid or the Children's Health Insurance Program within five years, except for pregnant women and kids at the discretion of states. "Health reform doesn't change any of the rules relating to public coverage programs for immigrants," Tolbert says.
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Belkira wrote:
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#203 Sep 11 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

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Just my personal opinion, but I wish that illegal immigrants could get covered under this plan.


We know. Don't feel bad so does Obama; despite what he told congress.

Do you think it's the responsibility of the US to feed and care for every single person in the world?


I'm glad to know that my president is compassionate. It's a welcome change.

And no, I don't think we're responsible for everyone in the world. Just those within our borders.
#204 Sep 11 2009 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
If we could feed and care for everyone in the world, then would it be our responsibility? Sure.

The ability of the nation to care for people already within the borders is a much less daunting proposition. I don't think that it's beyond the power of the government to do that; therefore, it should.


I don't really want to pay mandatory taxes to take care of people who illegally cross into my country. The more people the plan has to cover, the higher the cost to the taxpayer. I'm usually quite liberal, but on this subject, I really don't see why requiring proof of citizenship (or temporary citizenship) is such a bad thing. I actually find it quite unreasonable that liberals would even suggest that we should consider extending a national health insurance plan to cover non-nationals just because it makes them feel better about themselves.
#205 Sep 11 2009 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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In other news, it seems a bit disingenuous to apologize for your outburst and then turn around and use it as a fund raiser.

Ahh, politics. Better than the circus.


Show business is as show business does.

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Still don't get this. Some things just can't be compromised on. Means are easy to finagle but purpose, function, ends, are all unique logical spots that sometimes just can't coexist. If you believe the the function of the government is to protect enable and I believe that it's to protect and provide, then the only thing that attempts at bipartisan legislature could accomplish is wasted time.

I just keep thinking more and more that crying for compromise and bipartisan movement (at this point in this issue anyway) is nothing but a sham, a stalling tactic, a manipulative device meant to make people feel good while giving them nothing of substance. It's just absurd. A minority does it to garner sympathy and a majority does it because of aesthetics.

Why are conservatives being hard on Obama for treating the party exactly the way that most conservatives seem to want to treat terrorists? Don't negotiate with people that hate you, and if you do negotiate, surely don't do it for too long, isn't that right?


The correct move here is to convincingly feign bipartisanship to breach the smokescreen and make a decisive push for approval by appealing to public support. People like Franken have already started this phase of the operations, but it needs to be ramped up to a much larger scale to be effective. Part of that has to be done by running better interference control.
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#206 Sep 11 2009 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
BrownDuck wrote:
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
If we could feed and care for everyone in the world, then would it be our responsibility? Sure.

The ability of the nation to care for people already within the borders is a much less daunting proposition. I don't think that it's beyond the power of the government to do that; therefore, it should.


I don't really want to pay mandatory taxes to take care of people who illegally cross into my country. The more people the plan has to cover, the higher the cost to the taxpayer. I'm usually quite liberal, but on this subject, I really don't see why requiring proof of citizenship (or temporary citizenship) is such a bad thing. I actually find it quite unreasonable that liberals would even suggest that we should consider extending a national health insurance plan to cover non-nationals just because it makes them feel better about themselves.


First, again, not covering them will end up more expensive when they utilize the emergency rooms and cannot pay the bill. If you were to go to France, and you got sick, I believe their national insurance would cover you. I might be wrong on that...

Second, they are working here. They are providing us with a service, whether you want them here or not. They are giving back to the country in their own way.

Third, they are still human beings, and still need medical care.
#207 Sep 11 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
I don't really want to pay mandatory taxes to take care of people who illegally cross into my country.

You already do. The alternative is to let them die on the hospital floor.
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#208 Sep 11 2009 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I don't really want to pay mandatory taxes to take care of people who illegally cross into my country. The more people the plan has to cover, the higher the cost to the taxpayer. I'm usually quite liberal, but on this subject, I really don't see why requiring proof of citizenship (or temporary citizenship) is such a bad thing. I actually find it quite unreasonable that liberals would even suggest that we should consider extending a national health insurance plan to cover non-nationals just because it makes them feel better about themselves.


The problem with this is that we already do pay for it, and at a higher cost.
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#209REDACTED, Posted: Sep 11 2009 at 11:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#210 Sep 11 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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publiusvarus wrote:
The alternative is to deport them.

Good plan. When they show up dying and it comes out that they can't provide their government issued medical ID, we can send them back over the border. Or dump their corpse in the Rio Grande. Or something.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#211 Sep 11 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Default
Tulip,

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And no, I don't think we're responsible for everyone in the world. Just those within our borders.


Even if they broke the law to get here? Tell me do you think our govn should be giving grants to pimps? It's obvious you don't care about law and I'm just wondering where you generosity ends.


#212 Sep 11 2009 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

Quote:
And no, I don't think we're responsible for everyone in the world. Just those within our borders.


Even if they broke the law to get here? Tell me do you think our govn should be giving grants to pimps? It's obvious you don't care about law and I'm just wondering where you generosity ends.


Oh, that's right. Because people in prison don't get medical care and free food... right? Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 2:33pm by Belkira
#213 Sep 11 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Default
Jophed,

Quote:
Good plan. When they show up dying and it comes out that they can't provide their government issued medical ID, we can send them back over the border. Or dump their corpse in the Rio Grande. Or something.


If only it were that simple. To bad the Democrats won't let us deport illegals to begin with then we wouldn't have to worry about whether or not to pay for their healthcare, not emergecny room visits, actual healthcare.
#214 Sep 11 2009 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
Tulip,

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Oh, that's right. Because people in prison don't get medical care and free food... right?


Now we're talking. We provide emergency healthcare but if they can't prove citizenship them we lock them up with the rest of the criminals until they prove citizenship or we deport them.

#215 Sep 11 2009 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ironically, according to lolWiki:
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According to the site www.internationalliving.com, health care in Mexico is described as very good to excellent while being highly affordable, with every medium to large city in Mexico having at least one first-rate hospital. In fact, some California insurers sell policies that require members to go to Mexico for care where costs are 40% lower. Some hospitals are internationally accredited. Americans, particularly those living near the Mexican border, now routinely cross to Mexico for medical care. Popular specialties include dentistry and plastic surgery. Mexican dentists often charge one-fifth to one-fourth of US prices, while other procedures typically cost a third what they would in the US

Mexico also has universal public health coverage, guaranteed by its constitution.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#216 Sep 11 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

Quote:
Oh, that's right. Because people in prison don't get medical care and free food... right?


Now we're talking. We provide emergency healthcare but if they can't prove citizenship them we lock them up with the rest of the criminals until they prove citizenship or we deport them.


I have no idea what world you've living in, but from what I understand that's what we do now.

At least, here in this part of Tennessee.
#217 Sep 11 2009 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
Tulip,

Quote:
I have no idea what world you've living in, but from what I understand that's what we do now.

At least, here in this part of Tennessee.


That is not what's happening.
#218 Sep 11 2009 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mexico also has universal public health coverage, guaranteed by its constitution.


True story: On a dive trip to Mexico a few years ago I fell on some rocks and cut my knee to the bone. The concierge at my hotel drove me to see her friend the doctor at the local hyperbaric chamber, since the ER would be crowded.

The doctor there was great. She did a great job stitching and patching, and it healed perfectly. The whole deal was covered by my dive insurance, but it would have been free to me regardless.

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#219 Sep 11 2009 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now we're talking. We provide emergency healthcare but if they can't prove citizenship them we lock them up with the rest of the criminals until they prove citizenship or we deport them.


Are you ******* retarded? Sorry, force of habit.

Your solution to alleviate the cost of their ER/doctors visits is to jail them after the fact, thus not only incentivising them both to not seek medical attention until it becomes very critical and thus exorbitantly expensive, but to also pay the addition cost of jailing them after they recover as well? And keep in mind that this will further incentivize them to attempt to dodge the immigration police, leaving their medical fees unpaid.
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#220 Sep 11 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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But it SOUNDS like it should work!

Screenshot


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#221 Sep 11 2009 at 12:22 PM Rating: Default
Timey,

Quote:
Your solution to alleviate the cost of their ER/doctors visits is to jail them after the fact


Jail...then deport. See how you missed a pretty vital step there?

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And keep in mind that this will further incentivize them to attempt to dodge the immigration police, leaving their medical fees unpaid.


LMAO...you think illegals are paying their medical fees. Oh that's right you're a child who has no real life experience so you don't know who's paying for what. Allow me to educate you. Illegals don't pay medical fees. Yes I'm sure there are exceptions here and there but they're just that, exceptions.

Democrats pretend they care about healthcare costs but then are willing to provide insurance, paid for by the US citizen, for every single person who happens to make it to this country. And you have the nerve to blame the rates on the insurance industry.
#222 Sep 11 2009 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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I actually find it quite unreasonable that liberals would even suggest that we should consider extending a national health insurance plan to cover non-nationals just because it makes them feel better about themselves.


It's not really about how you think of yourself. It's about how you think of civilization.
#223 Sep 11 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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publiusvarus wrote:
Democrats pretend they care about healthcare costs but then are willing to provide insurance, paid for by the US citizen, for every single person who happens to make it to this country. And you have the nerve to blame the rates on the insurance industry.

Erm.... what?

We don't currently provide insurance to "every single person" as is. People get care by going to emergency rooms, which are under a mandate to provide immediate care by their very nature, and then skipping out on the bills. This cost is passed on at the consumer level and at the government level. That's not insurance though. In fact, if they had insurance, they could receive care at lower costs to both them and the physicians by going to the appropriate places for non-critical needs.

I'm fine with not including them in the bill but I do this as a political reality and with the full knowledge that we'll pay a higher price for it through emergency room visits in the future. The only other option is to start wasting valuable time at the emergency room running credit checks on people before we tend to the gaping wound in their abdomen or their baby with the 105 degree fever (and turning them away if they can't pay).

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 3:37pm by Jophiel
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#224 Sep 11 2009 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Jail...then deport. See how you missed a pretty vital step there?


Incorrect, I didn't miss it.

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LMAO...you think illegals are paying their medical fees. Oh that's right you're a child who has no real life experience so you don't know who's paying for what. Allow me to educate you. Illegals don't pay medical fees. Yes I'm sure there are exceptions here and there but they're just that, exceptions.


Yeah, welcome to the point.
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#225 Sep 11 2009 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, welcome to the point.


Oh, allow me

Screenshot
#226 Sep 11 2009 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
I think that coverage should be extended to visiting, legal tourists and legal immigrants. If for no other reason, that the courtesy is extended to Americans visiting other countries.

We just had one of our exchange students who lost his assistanceship while he was out with appendicitis, which means he lost his student healthcare coverage that was going to pay for his appendicitis surgery, as well as his only means to pay for it (since an assistanceship is a paying job.) So he's trapped in the US with a $20,000 medical bill and no means to pay for it. He's here legally, because hey, the US education system is superior to that in his home country. Unfortunately, the medical insurance system is far, far, far inferior.

But visiting nationals are different from illegal immigrants. If people would stop hiring them they'd go home, but farmers just love paying people peanuts to harvest their peanuts, and poultry factories cringe at how much it would cost to pay legal US citizens to pluck chickens.

They do the work that Americans don't want to do, and its US businesses that keep hiring them. Deportment isn't enforced in a lot of places because agribusiness would lose a big chunk of its work force.

Edited, Sep 11th 2009 5:23pm by catwho
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