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#52 Sep 10 2009 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
Professor AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
Quote:
And maybe I missed it, but how are we going to make sure that the premiums are not outrageous?


Well yeah. That's the problem with mandatory insurance: if you can't afford the insurance already, then making it mandatory is counterproductive unless through making it mandatory you reduce costs to where anyone could pay it. Anything more than a few hundred per year and it's just trading one cause of hardship for another, if you already have little money.


I was under the impression that the non-profit "public option" took care of that scenario.
Non-profit doesn't necessarily mean free. It probably won't even end up meaning "cheap," because then there'd be no point to having private health insurance, and if the Republicans/insurance lobbyists/drug company lobbyists have anything to say about it, it won't happen.


Of course not, but it would have to be "cheap." That's what the whole reform is about, making insurance affordable (i.e. "cheap"). Otherwise, we're wasting our time.

And yes, there would still be a "point" to having private insurance companies, for Pete's sake. A government option will not knock out the private industry. And if private companies can't compete, too ******* bad. It's not about making sure a company makes money, but about making sure that people can get medical care and not be bankrupt because of it.
#53 Sep 10 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Professor AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
Quote:
And maybe I missed it, but how are we going to make sure that the premiums are not outrageous?


Well yeah. That's the problem with mandatory insurance: if you can't afford the insurance already, then making it mandatory is counterproductive unless through making it mandatory you reduce costs to where anyone could pay it. Anything more than a few hundred per year and it's just trading one cause of hardship for another, if you already have little money.


I was under the impression that the non-profit "public option" took care of that scenario.
Non-profit doesn't necessarily mean free. It probably won't even end up meaning "cheap," because then there'd be no point to having private health insurance, and if the Republicans/insurance lobbyists/drug company lobbyists have anything to say about it, it won't happen.


Of course not, but it would have to be "cheap." That's what the whole reform is about, making insurance affordable (i.e. "cheap"). Otherwise, we're wasting our time.

And yes, there would still be a "point" to having private insurance companies, for Pete's sake. A government option will not knock out the private industry. And if private companies can't compete, too @#%^ing bad. It's not about making sure a company makes money, but about making sure that people can get medical care and not be bankrupt because of it.
I'm aware of all of this, and I wish it was different. I'm just saying it's not going to happen. The insurance industry is far too entrenched.
#54 Sep 10 2009 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
Professor AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
I'm aware of all of this, and I wish it was different. I'm just saying it's not going to happen. The insurance industry is far too entrenched.


So... what? You're in the "We should give up because it's not going to work" camp?
#55 Sep 10 2009 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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No, I'm in the "bracing myself for the inevitable disappointment" camp.
#56REDACTED, Posted: Sep 10 2009 at 7:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Another Obama lie.
#57 Sep 10 2009 at 7:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
publiusvarus wrote:
The Democrats, plural, actually booed W's state of the union speech. But you go right on talking about class.

I still don't get this argument. Are you saying that it was okay for the Democrats to do that or not? Because you're defending this guy doing it.

I'm not out to string the guy up or anything... I'm perfectly happy with him making the Republicans look like asses on live TV. Even better was when the GOP all sat, glared and moped during the line "No one should have to go broke from a medical emergency" while the Democrats applauded. That's golden television right there.


Well, at any rate Wilson apologized, and called the White House to apologize directly and got lectured on civility by Rahm Emanuel. That should be punishment enough. Smiley: laugh

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#58 Sep 10 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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What Obama doesn't tell you is that 5% of small business that will be forced to do this account for 70% of the work force.


If 5% of businesses account for 70% of the American work force, they're not small businesses.

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#59 Sep 10 2009 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I was under the impression that the non-profit "public option" took care of that scenario.


I share you impression, but that impression for me is a hope, and not something I can really believe yet, you know?
#60 Sep 10 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Excellent
publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

Quote:
A government option will not knock out the private industry. And if private companies can't compete, too @#%^ing bad.


What will be "too f*cking bad" is the reduced quality of care and the increased cost of it. Do you really want the insurance industry run like cash for klunkers?

What happens when Doctors are promised payment but the govn is real slow in getting it to them. From what I hear 9 out of 10 auto dealers have yet to be re-imbursed for the cash for klunkerse program.


What I want is for everyone to be able to afford to go to the fucking doctor without needing to take out a second mortgage. What I want is for doctors to be able to practice medicine without having to jump through hoops to make insurance companies comply with that they're supposed to be doing in the first place. What I want is for insurance companies to stop dropping people because they're too expensive to cover. What I want is for people to actually be able to get medical care, then actually have it paid by the insurance company they have been paying for a decade.

I don't give a **** about cash for clunkers, or the mortgage ****, or the banking crisis. Stop throwing out stupid **** as an excuse.
#61 Sep 10 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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Professor AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
publiusvarus wrote:
I mean President Obama does align himself with known radicals like Ayers, Wright, and this new guy.
Really? Still?


Sadly, my housemate yesterday said this when I asked why he doesn't like Obama. "His reverend is a racist." Yeah. Ok. I know how much religion influenced me after going for a decade; not saying it is the same for everyone, but I think Obama is smart enough to not be taken over by whatever mind control right-wingers seem to think Wright possesses.
#62 Sep 10 2009 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
Quote:
I was under the impression that the non-profit "public option" took care of that scenario.


I share you impression, but that impression for me is a hope, and not something I can really believe yet, you know?


I guess I'm an optimist. Watching Obama last night, I felt proud of a president for perhaps the first time in my life. He's attempting something that will, most likely, hurt his chances for re-election, no matter how it turns out. But he's trying. This is the type of project that a lot of presidents have waited for their last term to accomplish because they couldn't run for re-election. This takes balls, and he's got as much riding on it as the rest of us.
#63 Sep 10 2009 at 7:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
And if private companies can't compete, too @#%^ing bad. It's not about making sure a company makes money, but about making sure that people can get medical care and not be bankrupt because of it.


Another impression I share as both a belief, but also a secret hope Smiley: grin

Quote:
What will be "too f*cking bad" is the reduced quality of care and the increased cost of it


I wish you'd @#%^ing pick one or the other. Every time the cost argument is sunk, it becomes about the quality. Every time the quality argument is suck, it becomes about the cost. The weaselly back and forth is irritating beyond belief.

Quote:
He's attempting something that will, most likely, hurt his chances for re-election, no matter how it turns out. But he's trying


I may have said this already in the thread but if he gets this passed and that kills his second term election, I don't honestly care. If his words and intentions and beliefs that he expresses are true, I doubt he does either. I guess it can't really hurt that much to lose yourself in hope... the worst that happens is you're a bit foolish and more jaded eventually; it's not like much is personally at stake. Eh, maybe you're right.

Edited, Sep 10th 2009 11:43am by Pensive
#64 Sep 10 2009 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Well, at any rate Wilson apologized, and called the White House to apologize directly and got lectured on civility by Rahm Emanuel.

I'd like an illegal wiretap of that conversation...
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#65 Sep 10 2009 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
I may have said this already in the thread but if he gets this passed and that kills his second term election, I don't honestly care.


Oh, I do. I finally feel like I have someone as a president who cares about me (as a US citizen, of course, not personally) and it's nice. I'd hate for him to be punished for doing the right thing.

And yes, I've bought into the "Obama cares and hopes and wants change" lines. I don't care, sometimes you've got to believe in something.

Good lord, I'm a walking cliché...
#66 Sep 10 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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If he gets this passed I think it will not hurt his chances at re-election. Nothing succeeds like success.

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#67 Sep 10 2009 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
about making sure that people can get medical care and not be bankrupt because of it.
What's ridiculous is that this even needs to be fought for.
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#68REDACTED, Posted: Sep 10 2009 at 8:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Tulip,
#69 Sep 10 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
about making sure that people can get medical care and not be bankrupt because of it.
What's ridiculous is that this even needs to be fought for.


Well, yeah.

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#70REDACTED, Posted: Sep 10 2009 at 8:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Tulip,
#71 Sep 10 2009 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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publiusvarus wrote:
Do you think cash for klunkers was successful? Answer the question.

Absolutely.
Quote:
People can get medical care. The myth that they can't is put forth by people like yourself who don't take personal responsibility into account for anything people do.

Sure. And we pay a greater cost for it than we would if they were insured.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#72 Sep 10 2009 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

Do you think cash for klunkers was successful? Answer the question.

Quote:
What I want is for everyone to be able to afford to go to the @#%^ing doctor without needing to take out a second mortgage.


At what cost? Do we sign over every vestige of freedom and independence for this safety net?

Quote:
What I want is for doctors to be able to practice medicine without having to jump through hoops to make insurance companies comply with that they're supposed to be doing in the first place.


I promise you the doctors would rather not have to jump through the legal hoops caused by malpractice costs than the insurance companies.

Quote:
What I want is for insurance companies to stop dropping people because they're too expensive to cover.


So you want insurance companies to completely ignore everything they know about risk exposure because you think it's too expensive? Why don't we just arbitrarily reduce costs on everything if it's simply that easy?

Quote:
What I want is for people to actually be able to get medical care, then actually have it paid by the insurance company they have been paying for a decade.


People can get medical care. The myth that they can't is put forth by people like yourself who don't take personal responsibility into account for anything people do.
1. Cash for clunkers. Who gives a sh*t?

2. Insurance costs vs malpractice costs. First of all, this is a distraction. Second of all, have you ever actually talked to a doctor? My personal physician ******* almost every time I see him about insurance. And he goes out of his way to prescribe me generics anytime he can. And he's in private practice.

3. Your bullsh*t line about giving up freedoms so that people don't go bankrupt if they have a major medical incident. What? I'm pretty sure that going bankrupt is already giving up most of your freedoms to start with, so I don't know what your point is here.

Edited, Sep 10th 2009 11:38am by AshOnMyTomatoes
#73 Sep 10 2009 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:

Ugly,

Quote:
What's ridiculous is that this even needs to be fought for.


What's ridiculous is thinking it's fine to steal from one person to provide healthcare for another.
By your definition, all taxes are "stealing from one person to provide for another." Get the **** over it, that's what the government is there for, to make sure everyone has a fair playing field.
#74REDACTED, Posted: Sep 10 2009 at 8:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#75 Sep 10 2009 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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The payment deadline is Sept 30th so it's pretty early to start crying about being stiffed. So far over 40% of the payments have gone out so that's well on track to everyone getting paid on time.

But, yeah... Cash for Clunkers GRR!

Edit: The initial payout time was to be within 10 days so the government is lagging from that. But then, the program was wildly successful and I sincerely doubt any of the dealers would have preferred to not sell the car at all than to wait a couple extra weeks. Cars.com reports that auto sales activity remains strong despite doom predictions that it would plummet after the promotion. So, lots of extra sales then and a continuing strong sales streak now in an industry that was crashing at the cost of payment delayed by 20 days? Yeah, sounds successful to me.

Reuters wrote:
Despite an end to the Cash for Clunkers program, Cars.com reports site traffic and consumer contacts to dealers remain strong, bucking industry predictions that there would be a large decline in shopping activity following the program.

While the Cash for Clunkers program was a boon for new car shopping on Cars.com - doubling consumer contacts to dealers for new cars when compared pre Cash for Clunkers activity - post Cash for Clunkers contacts to dealers have remained equal to the amount of activity the site was experiencing before the program started.
[...]
Consumer activity for used cars continues to be strong as well. Consumer contacts with dealers during the Cash for Clunkers program was up 6 percent over pre Cash for Clunkers levels showing that the program had a positive impact on the automotive industry in general and not just the new car market. The site's used car shopping activity post Cash for Clunkers is currently 2 percent above pre Cash for Clunker activity.

"It's clear from looking at the traffic on our site and the resulting vehicle sales reports that the program solicited its desired response in new car shopping and certainly had a halo effect on the used car market," added Golub. "We believe this program helped to revitalize the marketplace and brought consumers back to market in a big way. We are encouraged to see site activity remain strong and are hopeful that this trend will continue throughout the fourth quarter and into 2010."


Edited, Sep 10th 2009 11:50am by Jophiel
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#76 Sep 10 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Facts are the devil.

Speaking of which, I heard a snippet of a speech given at some sort of event organized by a coal company. A Republican politician was speaking, and he said something to the effect of "When will Washington realize that only God has the power to change the temperature of the Earth, not Al Gore?" to a general cheer. I was saddened.

Edit: the politician may have been a Libertarian. It's all the same to me.

Edited, Sep 10th 2009 11:46am by AshOnMyTomatoes
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