Healthcare costs in the US are large, about 1/6th of the whole economy.
They are much, much lower in other countries (2-3 times lower).
The results are comparable.
It is insanity to stick with our system. It will destroy American competitiveness. It is economic suicide.
And then there is the case made above, which in and of itself should convince anyone that morally we have to do it.
It is a rare time when both moral and economic imperatives align. In this case they do.
Perhaps those special breed of fanatics can delay this for, say, another decade. It is estimated 18,000 died in 2000 due to lack of insurance so that would round out to about a fifth of a million people (you can see the whole report online: http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10367&page=1).
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A Serious Question.
7 years ago my Grandmother was having chest pains when she walked. It was so bad that she could barely walk around her house without having to stop every few feet to rest so she made an appointment to see her doctor who examined her and then recomended she see a cardioligist
They made her an appointment to see a Cardiolgist 4 days later and he told her not to worry it was probally just arthritis in her chest and it was nothing to worry about but he would do a work up on her.
She came in they examined her and within 2 hours she was on her way to the OR where she had a triple by-pass the next morning.
They told her if she had waited any longer she would have had a heart attack.
Im not trying to be an ***, im not joking around this is a true story and I have a serious question and would like a truthfull answer.
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
7 years ago my Grandmother was having chest pains when she walked. It was so bad that she could barely walk around her house without having to stop every few feet to rest so she made an appointment to see her doctor who examined her and then recomended she see a cardioligist
They made her an appointment to see a Cardiolgist 4 days later and he told her not to worry it was probally just arthritis in her chest and it was nothing to worry about but he would do a work up on her.
She came in they examined her and within 2 hours she was on her way to the OR where she had a triple by-pass the next morning.
They told her if she had waited any longer she would have had a heart attack.
Im not trying to be an ***, im not joking around this is a true story and I have a serious question and would like a truthfull answer.
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
ThiefX wrote:
A Serious Question.
7 years ago my Grandmother was having chest pains when she walked. It was so bad that she could barely walk around her house without having to stop every few feet to rest so she made an appointment to see her doctor who examined her and then recomended she see a cardioligist
They made her an appointment to see a Cardiolgist 4 days later and he told her not to worry it was probally just arthritis in her chest and it was nothing to worry about but he would do a work up on her.
She came in they examined her and within 2 hours she was on her way to the OR where she had a triple by-pass the next morning.
They told her if she had waited any longer she would have had a heart attack.
Im not trying to be an ***, im not joking around this is a true story and I have a serious question and would like a truthfull answer.
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
7 years ago my Grandmother was having chest pains when she walked. It was so bad that she could barely walk around her house without having to stop every few feet to rest so she made an appointment to see her doctor who examined her and then recomended she see a cardioligist
They made her an appointment to see a Cardiolgist 4 days later and he told her not to worry it was probally just arthritis in her chest and it was nothing to worry about but he would do a work up on her.
She came in they examined her and within 2 hours she was on her way to the OR where she had a triple by-pass the next morning.
They told her if she had waited any longer she would have had a heart attack.
Im not trying to be an ***, im not joking around this is a true story and I have a serious question and would like a truthfull answer.
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
Edit - I gotta edit cuz after reading your post again, I'm not sure what your point is. The story to me sounds like she's lucky to be alive. She shouldn't have waited four days for an appt with the heart doc. Sounds like you're thinking that in the UK, or someplace with a public health, that she'd wait longer? I doubt it, hopefully another doc, whether it be here, there or in the arctic circle would have taken more care in their diagnosis.
Edited, Aug 27th 2009 9:51pm by Elinda
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
removed.
Edited, Aug 27th 2009 4:00pm by Wisedeath
Edited, Aug 27th 2009 4:00pm by Wisedeath
Thief,
Personal stories aside the US does not provide quicker and better health care than countries with a NHS. If you've learned nothing else through this whole mess - it should be that.
In fact - this IS THE PROBLEM. We pay far more for far less than other countries of like economic development. We have high infant mortality and low life expectancy.
Whatever you think about nationalized health, there is no denying that our current system is badly broken.
Personal stories aside the US does not provide quicker and better health care than countries with a NHS. If you've learned nothing else through this whole mess - it should be that.
In fact - this IS THE PROBLEM. We pay far more for far less than other countries of like economic development. We have high infant mortality and low life expectancy.
Whatever you think about nationalized health, there is no denying that our current system is badly broken.
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
Wisedeath wrote:
removed.
Edited, Aug 27th 2009 4:00pm by Wisedeath
Edited, Aug 27th 2009 4:00pm by Wisedeath
You shouldn't have removed that, really. If you were worried about sounding like a jerk, you didn't.
ThiefX wrote:
7 years ago my Grandmother was having chest pains when she walked. It was so bad that she could barely walk around her house without having to stop every few feet to rest so she made an appointment to see her doctor who examined her and then recomended she see a cardioligist
If she was having severe chest pains that kept her from even walking more than a few steps, she should have been in the emergency room.
Ironically, while people without insurance wind up using the ER as standard medical care (and skip out on the bills), people with insurance often try to stay away from the ER as they intend to pay their bills and it's amazing how quickly you can rack up a bill in the ER which your insurance suddenly says "This test wasn't covered... or that... and you went to the wrong hospital..."
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
In fact - this IS THE PROBLEM. We pay far more for far less than other countries of like economic development. We have high infant mortality and low life expectancy.
Just an aside, Medical care is not the only reason why life expectancy is lower, factors like diet, exercise, average stress levels and societal norms do have a significant impact. It's not just the fault of the medical system.
Just as Planned.
Quote:
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
I've had many family members with serious illness--including a cousin that required immediate open heart surgery, in Canada that received it right away and without leaving the family with thousands of dollars of medical debt.
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
TLW wrote:
Just an aside, Medical care is not the only reason why life expectancy is lower, factors like diet, exercise, average stress levels and societal norms do have a significant impact. It's not just the fault of the medical system.
All true. Of course bringing infant mortality down to rates comparable with the rest of the first world would help normalize those statistics as well, and that DOES depend on having good pre- and post-natal care available.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
ThiefX wrote:
A Serious Question.
Im not trying to be an ***, im not joking around this is a true story and I have a serious question and would like a truthfull answer.
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
Im not trying to be an ***, im not joking around this is a true story and I have a serious question and would like a truthfull answer.
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
The same granny in the UK, New Zealand, France, Australia and yes, even Cuba would have recieved the same care, the same tests, the same procedures , and the same operation, all at absolutely no cost to her. The only difference would have been that insurance companies would not have been involved unless she had her own private insurance and she decided to go and have it all sorted at a 'private' hospital.
All of her needs (including help and support at home during the months following the operation) would have been looked after by the social health system availiable to her in those countries, happily paid for by the rest of society (because we might be next to need the service), leaving her and her family to get on with the recovery process.
Sounds really civilised doesn't it?
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.
I live in the UK. I have free access to the national health service, plus I have private medical insurance as part of my work package so I get the comfy bed, hot nurses (I imagine) and flat screen TV if I get anything serious. Double cover for the win baby. It is the way to go
Patrician wrote:
plus I have private medical insurance as part of my work package so I get the comfy bed, hot nurses (I imagine) and flat screen TV if I get anything serious.
Shit, in the US you have to go to prison for that kind of treatment.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Yeah, anyone in Australia feeling like that who was smart would have gone to an ER immediately, and have been in surgery within 24 hours. People who have private insurance usually but not always go to a private hospital, and can be pretty sure their insurance will cover them without quibble. Insurance WILL pay out. But co-payments or no co-payments depend on the level of insurance you took out and are paying for. Cheaper insurance means that you have a co-payment for stays and treatments. "Blue-ribbon" insurance covers everything without co-payment. Everyone else goes public, which basically means their hospital stay isn't like staying in a fancy hotel.
However there are a lot of dumb Australian men who walk around for ages with terrible chest pains and sore left arms until their wife or children see their purple-white faces and shriek at them to go to the ER. For some reason men here seem to have an aversion to going to the doctor. I wonder if that is why women live longer on average than men do?
Once you step inside the ER you get triaged. Someone with chest or certain types of abdomen pain get seen pretty quickly, along with the bleeders. I've gone into public hospital a few times with some things serious and some not so serious, and I'd estimate my average wait in ER at 4 hours. My longest was about 6 hours. My shortest they put me in a side room on a trolley almost straight away, and had a doctor in to see me in half an hour. That was for abdomen pain.
It's not all beer and skittles. I know that some people have gotten stuck at the bottom of the triage list waiting for 12 hours at a time. And the hospitals I've been in, their ER room chairs are MEAN. I desperately want to be horizontal, and the chairs are little plastic bucket ones you can't lie down across. There was one time I desperately wanted to lie down on the floor, I was feeling so bad. These days, now I'm more assertive, I would have done it.
Oh, that's in public hospitals. The only time I used a private hospital in an emergency situation (once I got private coverage) I was carted straight in from the Ambulance to a diagnostic suite. 36 stitches and 5 days in a single room later, and I walked out with no copayments or quibbles whatsoever. I gave them my private health insurance card and a signature while they were doing their initial fuss over my wound, and I never had to do a thing more about bills for the incident after that. My top of the range "Blue Ribbon" insurance for a single costs AU$240.00 a month (US$201) of which I pay AU$170 (US$148.72) a month, and the taxpayer chips in AU$80 9US$67)
For the last 3 years my insurance company has also been forking out $600 one day a week for me to attend an out-patient clinic for a chronic condition. Again, I haven't had to put in any co-payment.
The public healthcare system covers most of my specialist visits, and half my GP visits (my GP is pretty expensive, but they're kind of half-way specialists). The government covers about 90% of my medication costs, except for a rare medicine that my private insurer covers half of.
The Australian medical system isn't a utopia. Some patients still fall through some of the cracks that are still in the system. The government only covers the poor for dental and eyesight, which is very bad for those earning above $20k a year who can't afford private health insurance. Our doctors miss things sometimes. They muck up sometimes. Specialists disagree with each other and war over diagnoses. I sometimes feel like we're still in the Stone Age of medicine. But by most of the usual comparisons Australian medicine takes care of it's citizens at least marginally better than the American system, and we do it 5 times cheaper in GDP terms. If you look up the CIA country comparisons Australia does better than the US on infant mortality and average length of lifespan.
If you look up Wikipedia, there's no doubt the US pours more money into medical research than anyone else. But I don't see that you have to lose that while rearranging your healthcare system. Drug companies are more investment entities than anything else. American companies are continually buying out Australian research discoveries, and selling medicines back to us. I doubt that US hunger for venture capitalism will wain. Australia is still going to buy your drugs.
Wikipedia also says that the greatest reason for bankruptcies in the US is medical debt. In every other first world country healthcare is seen as a fundamental human right. And as I've said before, if I don't make sure you're healthy, then how can you keep working and paying your taxes which I benefit from?
Edited, Aug 28th 2009 5:39am by Aripyanfar
However there are a lot of dumb Australian men who walk around for ages with terrible chest pains and sore left arms until their wife or children see their purple-white faces and shriek at them to go to the ER. For some reason men here seem to have an aversion to going to the doctor. I wonder if that is why women live longer on average than men do?
Once you step inside the ER you get triaged. Someone with chest or certain types of abdomen pain get seen pretty quickly, along with the bleeders. I've gone into public hospital a few times with some things serious and some not so serious, and I'd estimate my average wait in ER at 4 hours. My longest was about 6 hours. My shortest they put me in a side room on a trolley almost straight away, and had a doctor in to see me in half an hour. That was for abdomen pain.
It's not all beer and skittles. I know that some people have gotten stuck at the bottom of the triage list waiting for 12 hours at a time. And the hospitals I've been in, their ER room chairs are MEAN. I desperately want to be horizontal, and the chairs are little plastic bucket ones you can't lie down across. There was one time I desperately wanted to lie down on the floor, I was feeling so bad. These days, now I'm more assertive, I would have done it.
Oh, that's in public hospitals. The only time I used a private hospital in an emergency situation (once I got private coverage) I was carted straight in from the Ambulance to a diagnostic suite. 36 stitches and 5 days in a single room later, and I walked out with no copayments or quibbles whatsoever. I gave them my private health insurance card and a signature while they were doing their initial fuss over my wound, and I never had to do a thing more about bills for the incident after that. My top of the range "Blue Ribbon" insurance for a single costs AU$240.00 a month (US$201) of which I pay AU$170 (US$148.72) a month, and the taxpayer chips in AU$80 9US$67)
For the last 3 years my insurance company has also been forking out $600 one day a week for me to attend an out-patient clinic for a chronic condition. Again, I haven't had to put in any co-payment.
The public healthcare system covers most of my specialist visits, and half my GP visits (my GP is pretty expensive, but they're kind of half-way specialists). The government covers about 90% of my medication costs, except for a rare medicine that my private insurer covers half of.
The Australian medical system isn't a utopia. Some patients still fall through some of the cracks that are still in the system. The government only covers the poor for dental and eyesight, which is very bad for those earning above $20k a year who can't afford private health insurance. Our doctors miss things sometimes. They muck up sometimes. Specialists disagree with each other and war over diagnoses. I sometimes feel like we're still in the Stone Age of medicine. But by most of the usual comparisons Australian medicine takes care of it's citizens at least marginally better than the American system, and we do it 5 times cheaper in GDP terms. If you look up the CIA country comparisons Australia does better than the US on infant mortality and average length of lifespan.
If you look up Wikipedia, there's no doubt the US pours more money into medical research than anyone else. But I don't see that you have to lose that while rearranging your healthcare system. Drug companies are more investment entities than anything else. American companies are continually buying out Australian research discoveries, and selling medicines back to us. I doubt that US hunger for venture capitalism will wain. Australia is still going to buy your drugs.
Wikipedia also says that the greatest reason for bankruptcies in the US is medical debt. In every other first world country healthcare is seen as a fundamental human right. And as I've said before, if I don't make sure you're healthy, then how can you keep working and paying your taxes which I benefit from?
Edited, Aug 28th 2009 5:39am by Aripyanfar
Talking about things getting pull out of ones ***** I went in to have pictures taken and they found enough to there to take some biopsies, that I hope to hear the result of in a couple of days. Now I have some pictures to go ewww over.
This on top of the fact that 2 days ago while getting my annual pelvic exam, the doctor mention that the last of the 3 CT scans while at the ER, they found what looks like a polyp on my left ovary, so I have to schedule a sonci-gram when I go in for my annual mammogram.
Then there is the two other specialist she wants me to see and I'm feeling very lucky that I did end up going to the ER 3 times this summer, when I was feeling faint and in pain. Big City ER's are hell, as you wait for the kid with gun shot wound be seen first, but it sure beats dying because you couldn't afford a life saving test. Course if you arrive with an IV in both arms and going into shock, you won't have to wait, but you may also leave in a body bag.
All being pay for by your American tax dollars, since I'm on Medicaid.
Jonwin will most likely have to cover some of the cost of breaking his toe, unless Workmen's Comp is willing to cough up more dough.
This on top of the fact that 2 days ago while getting my annual pelvic exam, the doctor mention that the last of the 3 CT scans while at the ER, they found what looks like a polyp on my left ovary, so I have to schedule a sonci-gram when I go in for my annual mammogram.
Then there is the two other specialist she wants me to see and I'm feeling very lucky that I did end up going to the ER 3 times this summer, when I was feeling faint and in pain. Big City ER's are hell, as you wait for the kid with gun shot wound be seen first, but it sure beats dying because you couldn't afford a life saving test. Course if you arrive with an IV in both arms and going into shock, you won't have to wait, but you may also leave in a body bag.
All being pay for by your American tax dollars, since I'm on Medicaid.
Jonwin will most likely have to cover some of the cost of breaking his toe, unless Workmen's Comp is willing to cough up more dough.
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
Bloody hell elne!
You can rest assured tho', that you are single handedly keeping a whole posse of medical specialists in new cars and foreign holidays.
And for that at least, you should be grateful!
You can rest assured tho', that you are single handedly keeping a whole posse of medical specialists in new cars and foreign holidays.
And for that at least, you should be grateful!
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.
ThiefX wrote:
...
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
If this had happened in the UK would my grandmother still be alive?
Just to clarify: you grandmother lives in the US, and is not under medicare?
If she is under medicare, the story has different implications. My impression is most people over 65 are covered through medicare as well as many younger, but very sick, folks.
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