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The Rich get a little less RichFollow

#1 Aug 21 2009 at 9:58 PM Rating: Good
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http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/08/20/business/21inequality.graphic.html
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The rich have been getting richer for so long that the trend has come to seem almost permanent.
They began to pull away from everyone else in the 1970s. By 2006, income was more concentrated at the top than it had been since the late 1920s. The recent news about resurgent Wall Street pay has seemed to suggest that not even the Great Recession could reverse the rise in income inequality.

But economists say — and data is beginning to show — that a significant change may in fact be under way. The rich, as a group, are no longer getting richer. Over the last two years, they have become poorer. And many may not return to their old levels of wealth and income anytime soon.


Quote:
Perhaps the broadest question is what a hit to the wealthy would mean for the middle class and the poor. The best-known data on the rich comes from an analysis of Internal Revenue Service returns by Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, two economists. Their work shows that in the late 1970s, the cutoff to qualify for the highest-earning one ten-thousandth of households was roughly $2 million, in inflation-adjusted, pretax terms. By 2007, it had jumped to $11.5 million.

The gains for the merely affluent were also big, if not quite huge. The cutoff to be in the top 1 percent doubled since the late 1970s, to roughly $400,000.

By contrast, pay at the median — which was about $50,000 in 2007 — rose less than 20 percent, Census data shows. Near the bottom of the income distribution, the increase was about 12 percent.

Some economists say they believe that the contrasting trends are unrelated. If anything, these economists say, any problems the wealthy have will trickle down, in the form of less charitable giving and less consumer spending. Over the last century, the worst years for the rich were the early 1930s, the heart of the Great Depression.

Other economists say the recent explosion of incomes at the top did hurt everyone else, by concentrating economic and political power among a relatively small group.

“I think incredibly high incomes can have a pernicious effect on the polity and the economy,” said Lawrence Katz, a Harvard economist. Much of the growth of high-end incomes stemmed from market forces, like technological innovation, Mr. Katz said. But a significant amount also stemmed from the wealthy’s newfound ability to win favorable government contracts, low tax rates and weak financial regulation, he added.

The I.R.S. has not yet released its data for 2008 or 2009. But Mr. Saez, a professor


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/business/economy/21inequality.html?_r=1&em

So what do you think? Will it harm and slow wealth creation for the rest of us or will there be some redistribution of wealth amongst the rest of us? I think the concentration of wealth among so few people seems antidemocratic to an extent b/c a small powerful group of wealthy people have too much influence, not only over government but over our daily laws. The financial laws and rules are written far too much to favor a small group.

But hey, YMMV.
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#2 Aug 21 2009 at 11:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread just seems to be begging people to reiterate their positions on well established sides of broad economic policy. The liberal latte crew tending toward more equal distribution and gbaji and friends favoring increased wealth among the rich, both arguing why they believe we all benefit from their positions.

Are my expectations here incorrect?
#3 Aug 22 2009 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
I'm in favor of redistributing wealth.

Therefore, you are all now subject to a 30% tax on all money you currently have or will have in the future, payable to me.
#4 Aug 22 2009 at 2:16 AM Rating: Excellent
in before varrus and gbaji blaming Obama.
#5 Aug 22 2009 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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My Anecdotal-Evidenceometer contradicts this article. I see far more Bentley's driving around the Hamptons this summer than in any previous summer.
#6 Aug 22 2009 at 4:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Will it harm and slow wealth creation for the rest of us or will there be some redistribution of wealth amongst the rest of us?


Neither. It'll probably harm the yacht industry slightly. Poor bastards.



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#7 Aug 22 2009 at 5:10 AM Rating: Decent
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The rich won't truly get poorer until the I.R.S. gets their hands on the bank account records from U.B.S.
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#8 Aug 22 2009 at 5:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Are my expectations here incorrect?


I'd say so. I ******* hate lattes Smiley: glare
#9 Aug 22 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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My Anecdotal-Evidenceometer contradicts this article. I see far more Bentley's driving around the Hamptons this summer than in any previous summer.


Obviously they can't afford to pay drivers anymore.
#10 Aug 22 2009 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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baelnic wrote:
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My Anecdotal-Evidenceometer contradicts this article. I see far more Bentley's driving around the Hamptons this summer than in any previous summer.


Obviously they can't afford to pay drivers anymore.

Maybe they're frantically spending on the high-profile items in a desperate attempt to appear just as well-off before they have to really back off.
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#11 Aug 22 2009 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't see the reason for this rich people 'hatred' when the whole philosophy your economy is that the entrepreneur (or joint venture) is entitled to more profits than the workers (who receive a fixed wage) due to fulfilling a need in society and risking their capital.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 6:57pm by Lokien
#12 Aug 22 2009 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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Lokien wrote:
I don't see the reason for this rich people 'hatred' when the whole philosophy your economy is that the entrepreneur (or joint venture) is entitled to more profits than the workers (who receive a fixed wage) due to fulfilling a need in society and risking their capital.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 6:57pm by Lokien


Because they are taking such a high percentage of wealth on the backs of people they are underpaying that it's harming the economy as a whole. And they are controlling the political system to the extent that the financial rules are made to benefit mostly the people in power, which is anti-democratic. @#%^ this sh*t. We don't need a @#%^ing House of Lords ruling our goddamned country. It's appalling how much we have been willing to take--the erosion of the middle and working class as a financially and politically important group and the wholesale theft from the poor. And it's sad to think about the fact that if we want the economy to maybe approach the levels of equality that it did in the 50s-70s is seen as radical socialism. It's largely because we get our information from the richest 1% who have interest in keeping the status quo.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 3:21pm by Annabella
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#13 Aug 22 2009 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

And they are controlling the political system to the extent that the financial rules are made to benefit mostly the people in power, which is anti-democratic


I think this is where the problem lies. Personally I believe that the capitalist economy only works under NO government intervention whatsoever. As long as the rich have influence over financial laws there will be this inequality where some people are getting more than they deserve, and others less.

Still, from a theoretic no-corruption economy, the rich deserve to be rich.

Who knows? Maybe Marx was correct in his idea that any 'real' capitalist market will have people attempting to eliminate competition (in this case the rich eliminating the poor / middle class's opportunity of sharing the wealth) to monopolize.
#14 Aug 22 2009 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
I'm not rich, I'm stuck in an office job, and I can calculate my income for the next few years already.

However, I do not blame the laws, the society or the rich businessmen. I know I'm not as smart in investments, businesses as they are, and I sure know I don't want to be thinking about business 24/7 like they do. I prefer to play games and watch video in my free time, which eliminates me from ever becoming one of the top dogs.

I wish I were a millionare like everyone else, but I'm not about to start whining about those who are and blaming everything I can point my finger at.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 3:51pm by McGame
#15 Aug 22 2009 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Who knows? Maybe Marx was correct in his idea that any 'real' capitalist market will have people attempting to eliminate competition (in this case the rich eliminating the poor / middle class's opportunity of sharing the wealth) to monopolize.


Of @#%^ing course?

Why would anyone ever believe anything to the contrary is the end product of competition? You can't have eternal competition. Someone's going to win, and when they do win, they are going to protect their winnings by stopping anyone else from taking them out the same way that they took the previous poor ******* out. Whether this is truly by lottery or will or a combination of the two I don't really care. It's awful by any means.

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Quote:
the whole philosophy your economy is that the entrepreneur (or joint venture) is entitled to more profits than the workers (who receive a fixed wage) due to fulfilling a need in society and risking their capital.


They aren't entitled to more profits, no. Workers fill another need in society and are no less necessary to economic progress. Entrepreneurs are as expendable as workers.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 7:15pm by Pensive
#16 Aug 22 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Entrepreneurs are as expendable as workers.


Really? What would happen if you were to swap a factory chain owner/manager to a factory worker who never completed high school?

You should try that out if you ever become an entrepreneur yourself.
#17 Aug 22 2009 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Really? What would happen if you were to swap a factory chain owner/manager to a factory worker who never completed high school?


This is not relevant at all to the question of the necessity of the function of their respective jobs. It is a nice example showing a potential scarcity of managers and a surplus of "workers" (whatever that means.) Fortunately, as a counterexample, in many occasions, "workers" who can adequately perform detailed or esoteric technical tasks are much more rare than the manager.

Neither role is inherently more valuable than the other. Any value that is different of them is contingent on the abundance of people who can fill the role. The roles themselves are equally necessary, and should not be ordered in a hierarchy.
#18 Aug 22 2009 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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This is not relevant at all to the question of the necessity of the function of their respective jobs. It is a nice example showing a potential scarcity of managers and a surplus of "workers" (whatever that means.) Fortunately, as a counterexample, in many occasions, "workers" who can adequately perform detailed or esoteric technical tasks are much more rare than the manager.

Neither role is inherently more valuable than the other. Any value that is different of them is contingent on the abundance of people who can fill the role. The roles themselves are equally necessary, and should not be ordered in a hierarchy.



If you understand that there are more workers than managers, then you should also understand that according to the rule of supply and demand, managers will earn more. This is the way it should be. If a factory worker who needs no qualification can earn as much as a manager who has spent money and years studying business/accounting, then no one would want to study managing. The factory will then cease to function.

Also, remember that rich and poor is relative. You may be poor compared to Bill Gates, but you're very rich compared to the homeless bums. If you support redistribution of wealth, then you will likely be redistributing your money to the extreme poor, since there are far more poor people than the rich.
#19 Aug 22 2009 at 4:18 PM Rating: Default
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This is the way it should be.


Nope.
#20 Aug 22 2009 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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People with better skills should be paid more. As an electrical engineer, in charge of building, programming, and keeping machines running, I shouldn't be paid the same as the person who stands around and presses the start button daily.

Whether or not you think running a business requires more skill than the worker, that's your problem. But how can you think that everyone should be paid the same amount regardless of what skills they actually have?
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#21 Aug 22 2009 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Also, remember that rich and poor is relative. You may be poor compared to Bill Gates, but you're very rich compared to the homeless bums. If you support redistribution of wealth, then you will likely be redistributing your money to the extreme poor, since there are far more poor people than the rich.


According to my first link, the top 1% earned 24% of the income. The other 9% shared the other 26% and the bottom 90 shared 50%. That's only income--that doesn't even measure alot about wealth.

No, redistribution would take far more money from the rich than from the rest of us. We as a country have been consistently robbed by people who make their money on the backs of the rest of us and you suckers still think they deserve it. Jesus, it's like you have the mentality of the more unenlightened serfs.
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#22 Aug 22 2009 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
TirithRR wrote:
People with better skills should be paid more. As an electrical engineer, in charge of building, programming, and keeping machines running, I shouldn't be paid the same as the person who stands around and presses the start button daily.

Whether or not you think running a business requires more skill than the worker, that's your problem. But how can you think that everyone should be paid the same amount regardless of what skills they actually have?


You believe people should be paid based on what skills they have, not what skills they use in their job? Interesting.
#23 Aug 22 2009 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kavekk wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
People with better skills should be paid more. As an electrical engineer, in charge of building, programming, and keeping machines running, I shouldn't be paid the same as the person who stands around and presses the start button daily.

Whether or not you think running a business requires more skill than the worker, that's your problem. But how can you think that everyone should be paid the same amount regardless of what skills they actually have?


You believe people should be paid based on what skills they have, not what skills they use in their job? Interesting.


So if that machine operator is really really good are pushing the start button, he/she should be paid more than me? That machine operator that requires no experience, no education. High school drops can do it (and do do it)? But he/she just happens to hit that button so good, they have super button pushing skills and make a perfect machine operator!
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#24 Aug 22 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Default
You didn't read what I posted, did you? Smiley: laugh
#25 Aug 22 2009 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, by adding the "interesting..." at the end, it came off as a disagreement or something, who knows, one line isn't very much to work with.


You specifically mentioned skills for their job.

So, I have troubleshooting skills, and programming skills, all needed for my specific job. While I may not have the best of these skills, I do what I can to do my job.

A machine operator needs a separate set of skills. The ability to follow instructions (usually set by me). And the ability to press a button to start a machine.

You mention skills they have rather than skills required to do their job. So maybe they are better at following instructions than I am. But my skills I have are still more important and worth more.

So yes, I believe that people should be paid more for the skills they have. Not just paid more for the level of skill they have for their specific job. An average engineer has skills that are worth more than an above average machine operator. So the Engineer should be paid more than the machine Operator.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 9:17pm by TirithRR
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#26 Aug 22 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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But how can you think that everyone should be paid the same amount regardless of what skills they actually have?


Because they are both performing necessary roles for the end of social prosperity and progress and all of that good jazz.

I'm not sure if I'd want total salary equality, but you don't need equality at one's place precision to eliminate class from society, and that's ultimately what I'd like. I can't begin to fathom that someone making 1M per year provides more value than the guy making 50K which is actually in proportion with the difference. 20x more valuable? Really? I can't imagine a job in my wildest dreams that should be so valuable or worthy of such a price. Getting into the multiple millions is just farcical.

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Quote:
You mention skills they have rather than skills required to do their job. So maybe they are better at following instructions than I am. But my skills I have a still more important and worth more.


Yeah I think he means that, regardless of what skills you have, if you are doing the same job as the dropout, you'll get paid the same.

Edited, Aug 22nd 2009 9:20pm by Pensive
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