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Lockerbie Bomber Freed on Compassionate GroundsFollow

#1 Aug 20 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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I'm, quite honestly, not sure how I feel about this. Coming from a country that detains suspected terrorists for as long as they like without filing charges, the thought of letting a convicted terrorist go back to his home country for a little thing like cancer is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Obviously the U.S. authorities think it's a bad move, but they'd favor the installment of oubliettes.

Thoughts?

Nexa
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#2 Aug 20 2009 at 5:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I wonder how much influence the Libyan government had in the decision to release this guy?

Quote:
Al-Megrahi's trial and conviction led to a major shift in Libya's relationship with the West.

The Times of London reported Thursday that the private jet of Libya's leader, Moammar Gadhafi, was scheduled to collect al-Megrahi at Glasgow Airport if he was released following MacAskill's announcement.

Gadhafi engineered a rapprochement with his former critics following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. He renounced terrorism, dismantled Libya's secret nuclear program, accepted his government's responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing and paid compensation to the victims' families.
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#3 Aug 20 2009 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
From what I understand, part of this decision was informed by the fact that quite a few people believe his role in the attack was not quite what it was made up to be at the time. That, coupled with the fact he's only got 3 months to live, informed their decision for releasing him.

I don't know enough to have an informed opinion about whether he should be released or not, but it doesn't seem like it matters much either way, since he's going to die very soon.

Quote:
Coming from a country that detains suspected terrorists for as long as they like without filing charges


Well, it's 42 days actually.
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#4 Aug 20 2009 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I think he's talking about America.

I'm split on this one. I don't truly believe he had a lot, if anything, to do with it. That aside he was convicted in a court and sentenced to life. He better croak damn soon or the Scottish Government are going to look like a right bunch of plebs.

Personally I think he was a scapegoat for Iran. When their security forces come knocking your choices are limited.
#5 Aug 20 2009 at 5:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
From what I understand, part of this decision was informed by the fact that quite a few people believe his role in the attack was not quite what it was made up to be at the time. That, coupled with the fact he's only got 3 months to live, informed their decision for releasing him.

I don't know enough to have an informed opinion about whether he should be released or not, but it doesn't seem like it matters much either way, since he's going to die very soon.

Quote:
Coming from a country that detains suspected terrorists for as long as they like without filing charges


Well, it's 42 days actually.


Sorry, I meant where *I'm* coming from.

Nexa
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#6 Aug 20 2009 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
Nexa wrote:
Sorry, I meant where *I'm* coming from.

Nexa


Ah, my bad. That's the problem when we all come from countries where locking up terror-suspects indefinitely is the done thing.
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#7 Aug 20 2009 at 6:31 AM Rating: Decent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:


Ah, my bad. That's the problem when we all come from countries where locking up terror-suspects indefinitely is the done thing.
Hope springs eternal.
npr wrote:
An American general has produced a detailed report that says as many as 400 prisoners at a U.S.-run detention facility at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan can be released, as there is little evidence against them and they pose no threat.
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#8 Aug 20 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Default
I'm curious. This guy's a associated with radical muslims who like to blow things up right? He's got how many months to live? And they're letting this guy out in public?
#9 Aug 20 2009 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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Politically it's a good move. Ethically... he poses little threat to anyone, now. Let him see his family again before he dies.

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#10 Aug 20 2009 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmmm.... premiditated murder of 270+ people?

FUck him. I'd have preferred to see him die in prison.
#11 Aug 20 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dr Jim Swire's daughter was killed on the flight, and he's been campaigning for this for years.

If we believe in revenge, we let him the guy rot in jail.

If we believe in justice, we make him serve his sentence, but allow him to die with his loved ones.

I believe in justice. It's sometimes a hard pill to swallow, but it's what separates us from lynch-mobs and capital punishment.

I expect Hellary will keep pandering to da deep souf and bleat about the fact that a good Christian American jury would have strung him up before a trial.
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#12 Aug 20 2009 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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publiusvarus wrote:
I'm curious. This guy's a associated with radical muslims who like to blow things up right? He's got how many months to live? And they're letting this guy out in public?

If you're lucky, they'll send him to Chicago with a backpack full of plutonium.
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#13 Aug 20 2009 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
publiusvarus wrote:
I'm curious. This guy's a associated with radical muslims who like to blow things up right? He's got how many months to live? And they're letting this guy out in public?

If you're lucky, they'll send him to Chicago with a backpack full of plutonium.


No way! He could get cancer from... oh. Never mind.

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#14 Aug 20 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think they should release him... about 2500 feet up out the door of a 737...
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#15 Aug 20 2009 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
3 months is enough to be recruited, armed with bomb belts and go to heaven as a matyr.
#16 Aug 21 2009 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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You see this is the problem with Middle East/West relations. No matter what you do, whether it's to appease in this case or bomb they damn you if you do and damn you if you don't.

To be honest these pictures anger me, they really consider this guy a hero or they are championing the fact that they got one over on the West?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8213352.stm
#17 Aug 21 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
Goggy wrote:
To be honest these pictures anger me, they really consider this guy a hero or they are championing the fact that they got one over on the West?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8213352.stm


They're convinced he's innocent. They've been convinced of this pretty much since the trial. So, for them, it's an innocent man being released after a miscarriage of justice. Just like the West was happy when that American-Iranian journalist was released after accusations of spying, except she didn't spend decades in jail.

I don't know if he's guilty, but there are lots of inconsistencies in this case. Most neutral observrers thought it was highly dubious. Even if he is guilty, and it's far from certain, he's just on tiny part of a complex network of spies, government agents, and terrorist organisations, which all contributed to this bombing. It really wasn't just "one man and his bomb".

So yeah, that's why. Maybe if the BBC took 2 seconds to explain why these crowds were cheering, it could help things a bit.
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#18 Aug 21 2009 at 1:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Most of the discussions on this subject conflate several different issues:
  • Was he Guilty or Innocent?
  • If guilty, should a life sentence mean life without parole?
  • If someone has only a short time to live, is our compassion exclusive to the innocent?

On the first point, as Red points out, there are huge inconsistencies in the evidence, particularly that the primary prosecution witness claimed to remember seeing al-Megrahi, when it is now known that the witness had been shown photographs identifying him before picking him out. That would make most convictions 'unsafe' under appeal law.
A large number of the UK victims' relatives are livid that they believe al-Megrahi was a patsy, and without an appeal, they'll never know who really was responsible.

The second is a straight-forward ethical challenge. Without offering the hope of redemption, what incentive is there for repentance or rehabilitation? I'm not a Christian, but I know that forgiveness is one of its central tenets. In most cases, this comes down to whether you believe in revenge or justice.

On the last point, I don't see why making him die in a prison miles from home serves anything other than spite.

Finally, I'm not surprised at the trans-Atlantic division of opinion. On this side we rejected the death penalty as being inhumane and medieval, while in the USA it has wide support.

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#19 Aug 21 2009 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh I'm in no doubt he was a 'patsy' (great term!), my concern is, if he was involved, what was the level of his involvement? Or was it merely the case that the finger was pointed at Iran, after much denial, it was easier to offer up one of their civilians and save face with the West or risk military action/sanctions?

The whole thing stinks, and if what you said is true Nobby, about the photographs, a UK trial judge and a UK lawyer would of had him released easily.

I also agree with Red about the BBC reporting of the crowds, merely saying he was a hero to them, rather than, as you put it, cheering because they believe an innocent man has come home gets people riled, as it did with me.

I just wonder what is going on in the background?
#20 Aug 21 2009 at 2:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Here's an article explaining the doubts surrounding the trial.

Extracts:

Quote:
Some families of the victims said they believed that Mr Megrahi was probably innocent and demanded an independent investigation into the legal process. The development is also expected to have international ramifications. British and American officials originally suspected that Iran commissioned the attack on the Pan Am flight, using the Palestinian guerrilla group PFLP-GC, in retaliation for the shooting down of an Iranian airliner by the US. Only later were accusations aimed at Libya, and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's regime has since paid out £1.4m in compensation to the families of each of the victims.

The commission said it was "of the view, based upon our lengthy investigations, the new evidence we have found and other evidence which was not before the court, that the applicant may have suffered a miscarriage of justice".

It said it had identified six grounds where it believed a miscarriage "may have occurred" at the original trial at Camp Zeist in the Netherlands, six years ago.

Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora was one of those killed, said he had always suspected the verdict was flawed. "I went into that court thinking I was going to see the trial of those who were responsible for the murder of my daughter. I came out thinking he had been framed. I am very afraid we saw steps taken to ensure a politically desired result was obtained.

"Any evidence of perversion of justice should be investigated. Those responsible for any miscarriage of justice should be investigated, and there would have to be a routing and eradication of the underlying ethos that allowed it to happen."

Another member of the families' campaign group, the Rev John Mosey, who lost his daughter Helga, added: "At last an effort is being made to look at the situation and possibly, and I only say possibly, correct things that have gone awry."

Mr Megrahi, in a statement issued through his solicitor, said: "I reiterate today what I have been saying since I was first indicted in 1991: I was not involved in the Lockerbie bombing in any way whatsoever."

The commission questioned the evidence of the main prosecution witness, Tony Gauci, a shopkeeper from Malta. Clothing from Mr Gauci's shop, which he claimed to have sold to Mr Megrahi, was found strewn over Dumfriesshire countryside after the explosion.

In its 800-page report, the commission said evidence not made available to the defence showed that Mr Gauci had been shown a photograph of Mr Megrahi in a magazine linking him to the bombing four days before picking out the Libyan in an ID parade. The report said: "In the commission's view, evidence of Mr Gauci's exposure to the photograph at such close proximity to the parade undermines the reliability of his identification."

The commission found there was no "reasonable basis" for the original court's conclusion that Mr Megrahi had bought the clothing at Mr Gauci's shop on 7 December 1988.

The commission also said it had "serious misgivings" about the credibility of a former police officer, nicknamed "the Golfer", who had claimed to have sensitive information about the case.
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#21 Aug 21 2009 at 3:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Finally, I'm not surprised at the trans-Atlantic division of opinion. On this side we rejected the death penalty as being inhumane and medieval, while in the USA it has wide support.


Well there's no reason to kill him, but making him serve what he is due? Maybe.

Let's just assume he's totally guilty for a second, so that the dubious nature of the trial doesn't muddy the question. It really, really bothers me when highly publicized cases such as murders or kidnappings or rape incite rage and retributive thoughts of pain and violence against criminals. We have a justice system for a reason: to be impartial and to avoid letting spite and malice cloud our judgment about what someone deserves. Ideally, the measures which are given to criminals are not only free of spite, but full of compassio...

Well I answered my own contradiction. Carry on.
#22 Aug 21 2009 at 4:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nobby wrote:

If we believe in revenge, we let him the guy rot in jail.

If we believe in justice, we make him serve his sentence, but allow him to die with his loved ones.

I believe in justice. It's sometimes a hard pill to swallow, but it's what separates us from lynch-mobs and capital punishment.


Have I told you, lately, that I less than three you?

Nexa
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#23 Aug 21 2009 at 6:13 AM Rating: Good
Personally, while I can see it from both sides, I think it's always best to err on the side of compassion.

Perhaps this is one of the resons I'm not in politics.
#24 Aug 21 2009 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Personally, while I can see it from both sides, I think it's always best to err on the side of compassion.

Perhaps this is one of the resons I'm not in politics.


That is one of the reasons you should be in politics.
#25 Aug 21 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Personally, while I can see it from both sides, I think it's always best to err on the side of compassion.

Perhaps this is one of the resons I'm not in politics.
I'm not nearly familiar enough with this case to have an opinion one way or anther, I guess I'd just caution about compassionate intent.

All doubts of guilt aside, is showing compassion for a man convicted of killing hundreds of others being dispassionate to the loved ones of the victims?
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#26 Aug 21 2009 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Personally, while I can see it from both sides, I think it's always best to err on the side of compassion.

Perhaps this is one of the resons I'm not in politics.
I'm not nearly familiar enough with this case to have an opinion one way or anther, I guess I'd just caution about compassionate intent.

All doubts of guilt aside, is showing compassion for a man convicted of killing hundreds of others being dispassionate to the loved ones of the victims?


I don't see how.

In my opinoin, the point of a penal system shouldn't be to punish. It should be to rehabilitate and, when that can't work, to keep dangerous people away from society where they can do more harm. This man cannot do any more harm. Keeping him locked up isn't about revenge for the victims. Or at least, it shouldn't be.
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