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We're not all idiots hereFollow

#1 Aug 19 2009 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is an opinion piece in the Knoxville newspaper. It made me think of the discussions that go on here:

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/aug/18/precision-in-language-makes-things-clear/

Quote:
Precision in communication is a good thing. Writers who care about their craft always look for the word that best describes an action, a thing or a person. Sometimes there is no perfect word.

As a writer concerned with precision, I occasionally purge a word from my vocabulary because the word has been so overused and badly abused that it no longer has a clear meaning.

It's been some time since I dumped "liberal" and "conservative" from my vocabulary because, in my opinion, they both had become meaningless through careless usage. Essentially, both have come to mean "Satan" or "traitor" depending on who uses them.

They have degenerated into hateful epithets for lazy, nonthinking people to hurl at others. It is not a crime or a sin to be liberal or conservative in the real meaning of the words, but the real meaning of both has been replaced by the verbal equivalent of an obscene gesture.

My banning of the words won't stop them from being abused, but I don't have to participate. In fact, the true test of whether a person even understands a word is whether or not he or she can define it succinctly. If you can't define a word, you don't know what it means; it is a hollow sound borrowed from someone else.

"Socialism" is hanging on in my vocabulary, although it's another vague word dragged out every time health care reform comes up. Lately, I've begun asking people to define socialism when they use it as an argument against health care reform. Any person who understands the word can give a single-sentence definition.

Let's try it. "Socialism is a system of government under which there is no private ownership, and all means of production and distribution are controlled by the state." At one time, most American students learned this in civics class before facts became political footballs. It does not apply to this country.

Asking for a definition of socialism sometimes results in an angry outburst from a person who has been using the word to describe policies he or she just doesn't like. If the person doesn't know the definition, it's embarrassing. If he or she does, it's also embarrassing.

The moment a person who understands the definition of socialism speaks it out loud, it becomes clear that health care reform isn't about socialism. It's about entrenched self-interests in a health system that spends more and delivers less value than any other free society.

Socialism is still in my vocabulary because it has apparently lost some of its evil overtones already. Opponents of health care reform are desperately floating scary ideas like "rationing," "euthanasia" and "federally funded abortions" to obscure the real issue that countries like France, the Netherlands and Canada take better care of their citizens than we do.

Rationing already happens based on age, disease and finances; we are already paying higher premiums for the people who have no alternative but emergency rooms; voluntary counseling for the elderly doesn't equate to euthanasia clinics; and abortion is a sure way to stir controversy, whether it's relevant or not.

Do I want a bureaucrat making decisions for me? No. But insurance clerks are now making those decisions, and it's profit, not my health, that concerns them. They can refuse to insure me or cancel me on a whim without explanation. Somewhere between the two extremes there's a solution, but we have discuss it rationally to get there.

We can start by at least understanding what the words we use actually mean.

David Hunter, who writes this column for the News Sentinel, is a freelance writer and former Knox County sheriff's deputy. You may write him at P.O. Box 1124, Powell, TN 37849. His e-mail address is davidhunter333@comcast.net.


See? Don't let varus' tripe make you think that everyone in Tennessee is a complete and utter fool.

Bolded parts are mine.
#2 Aug 19 2009 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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A very good piece! And for the record, I don't have anything against Knoxville. And our football games against them are pretty good, from what I hear Smiley: nod
#3 Aug 19 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'll bet this *is* varrus, and posting here is just some kind of sociological playground.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#4 Aug 19 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Very nice, thanks Nad.

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#5 Aug 19 2009 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
I'll bet this *is* varrus, and posting here is just some kind of sociological playground.


That would be very scary, since the writer was once a deputy. Smiley: eek
#6 Aug 20 2009 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
That's exactly the kind of talk I'd expect from a liberal socialist Smiley: mad
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#7 Aug 20 2009 at 1:35 AM Rating: Decent
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COMMUNISM
#8 Aug 20 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Let's try it. "Socialism is a system of government under which there is no private ownership, and all means of production and distribution are controlled by the state." At one time, most American students learned this in civics class before facts became political footballs. It does not apply to this country.


Is this the writer's opinion or is it mocking people who do not know what socialism is?

***

What I mean is, that definition sounds further to the left than what I normally think of as modern socialism.

Edited, Aug 20th 2009 7:06am by Pensive
#9 Aug 20 2009 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
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The author's definition of Socialism appears to be more appropriate in defining communism. I -might- be wrong on this(it has been a long time since I went over Marx's work in an academic setting), but I thought that Socialism was the intermediate stage between capitalism and communism where the state had not yet taken complete control, there was still private ownership but a general prevalence of centralized industries
#10 Aug 20 2009 at 3:40 AM Rating: Excellent
There are different definitions of "socialism". There are different levels, or degrees, of socialism. And the word has different meanings depending on the country or context. The French Socialist Party is the equivalent of the Labour Party in the UK (mainstream left), whereas the English/Scottish Socialist Party is the equivalent of the Communist Party in France (extreme left).

In the US, they use it as a modern synonim for "communism". It's dog-whistle politics.

The correct term for the economic systems in most of Europe is "Social market economy", which is pretty much what you have in the US too, albeit to a slightly smaller degree. But Europe is not really more "socialist" than the US. Some US states are more "socialist" than some European countries. It's quite a meaningless label in today's context.
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#11REDACTED, Posted: Aug 20 2009 at 7:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes sadly we have liberal bureaucrats here in knoxville. This guy is the type of person who pushed for and supported tenn car, which nearly bankrupted this state. Socialism is about public, govn, ownership. Based on that alone one should be resistant to any kind of change they're pushing. Blaming the current healthcare systems problems on "insurance clerks" vividly illustrates this guys bias against the insurance companies. I didn't notice any comments like this directed at trial attorneys. I didn't notice any comments on the results of tenn care.
#12 Aug 20 2009 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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publiusvarus wrote:
Based on that alone one should be resistant to any kind of change they're pushing.


This is your problem. You don't care what the issue is. All you care about is who suggested it. That's got to be a sad, frustrating existence.
#13 Aug 20 2009 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Lol... The author of that article kinda proves his own theory I suppose...

Quote:
Let's try it. "Socialism is a system of government under which there is no private ownership, and all means of production and distribution are controlled by the state." At one time, most American students learned this in civics class before facts became political footballs. It does not apply to this country.


Let's take his definition of socialism (which is close, although not complete).

Compare this quote:

Obama wrote:
I would like to -- I would hope that we could set up a system that allows those who can go through their employer to access a federal system or a state pool of some sort. But I don't think we're going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There's going to be potentially some transition process.


Huh... A "transition process" to get us to eliminate employer coverage in favor of a government funded pool of coverage?

Socialist? Or not? I mean, it's not eliminating *all* private ownership, it's just eliminating it from one thing, right? I think you can certainly say it moves us in the direction of socialism as the author uses it.

Of course, if we take the Merriam-Webster online definition:


Quote:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done



Hmmm... Definition 1 fits. Clearly Obama is "adovating collective or governmental ownership and administration" of health care.

Definition 2 is what the author quoted and represents a "socialist state", not something which is "socialist" in nature. As I said above, it's not socialist "yet", but it's heading that direction.

Definition 3 is also aimed at a current state. Little harder to fit this since it's subjective. I think we can pretty safely state that working to eliminate private payers of health care in favor of government funded pools is representative of a state in-between capitalism and communism.



The point is that when people point at a policy or agenda and call it "socialist", they are talking about definition number 1. The author restricted his definition of socialism to a definition of a completed socialist state. Sure. Maybe he doesn't like definition number 1, but that doesn't mean he gets to just ignore people who are correctly identifying what something is. Regardless of label, such policies do fit the described ideology.
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More words please
#14 Aug 20 2009 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
I'm all for Socialializing health insurance if it means that poor people can see their doctor instead of their cold developing into pneumonia and possibly killing them.

I don't see how it's a bad thing. At all. I think it's selfish to think, "I've got health care insurance, the people who don't can rot, it's their own fault."
#15REDACTED, Posted: Aug 20 2009 at 11:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Tulip,
#16 Aug 20 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

Quote:
"I've got health care insurance, the people who don't can rot, it's their own fault."


Typical liberal response to anyone that opposes their view. And you act as though using terminology like "death panels" that correctly describes what the elderly are going to experience under a govn plan, is over line. H*ll you're saying people who don't support this are telling everyone who's uninsured they can rot.



Varus, you said it yourself. It's their own fault for not having insurance.

And they are not "death panels," you fucking idiot.
#17 Aug 20 2009 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I'm all for Socialializing health insurance if it means that poor people can see their doctor instead of their cold developing into pneumonia and possibly killing them.


Sure. And that's a valid and respectable position. It's just amusing how many gyrations pundits and politicians on the left go through to insist that this isn't what they're working towards...


Quote:
I don't see how it's a bad thing. At all. I think it's selfish to think, "I've got health care insurance, the people who don't can rot, it's their own fault."


Yes. That would be selfish. But that's not why conservatives oppose socialized medicine.
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More words please
#18 Aug 20 2009 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

Quote:
"I've got health care insurance, the people who don't can rot, it's their own fault."


Typical liberal response to anyone that opposes their view.


Yeah, um... this is exactly what you've said. They deserve it. Except for a couple "few and far between cases," people don't buy insurance and deserve to suffer for their lifestyle. Y'know, maybe it's the typical response because folks like you believe it, and that's what the country is hearing?

Quote:
And you act as though using terminology like "death panels" that correctly describes what the elderly are going to experience under a govn plan, is over line.


Well, I personally would be confused by the term "death panel" meaning "end-of-life consultation to discuss living wills and arrangements." I mean, you can call pro-lifers "Anti-choice" and it's accurate too. Labels make it easy to get an emotional tug. Then you figure out what is actually meant and go "Oh. Man, what the hell were they thinking when they said 'death panel'?"

Quote:
H*ll you're saying people who don't support this are telling everyone who's uninsured they can rot.


In effect, they are. It means you're fine with the status quo, where millions of Americans are without insurance, about half of them for reasons unrelated to cost. No one's saying you have to support THIS plan, but if you care about your fellow citizens, you might at least work to change it. Keep in mind the VAST majority of Americans think that the healthcare and health insurance systems need change; what varies is how much change they need. Very few people are content with the status quo.
#19 Aug 20 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
Tulip,

I've said most people who are uninsured are so for reasons they have control over. This country may have at most 10 million who couldn't afford simply by making changes in their lifestyle. So let's look at what it takes to insure just those; this doesn't take creating a govn plan that's going to drive private insurers out and the quality of care down.

#20 Aug 20 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And they are not "death panels," you fucking idiot.


Yes. They are "death advisory boards". See. They don't tell a doctor that he should let his patient die. They just define a set of criteria for doctors to follow when discussing end of life choices with their patients. And hey. The fact that the same folks writing the guidelines might be controlling your paycheck will in no way influence what you say to that patient...
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#21 Aug 20 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And they are not "death panels," you fucking idiot.


Yes. They are "death advisory boards". See. They don't tell a doctor that he should let his patient die. They just define a set of criteria for doctors to follow when discussing end of life choices with their patients. And hey. The fact that the same folks writing the guidelines might be controlling your paycheck will in no way influence what you say to that patient...
It provides people with end of life counseling which is extremely valuable. And only in bizarro Gbaji land would the government start telling the counselors to convince people to let themselves die. that's between the patient and whoever is helping themSmiley: oyvey

Why do you give credence to these wacko theories? It just undermines you when you actually have a legitimate point.

Edited, Aug 20th 2009 3:02pm by Xsarus
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#22 Aug 20 2009 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
Man, Varus must be uncomfortable, with that abacus up his ***. He sure does get a lot of numbers from there though.
#23 Aug 20 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
They just define a set of criteria for doctors to follow when discussing end of life choices with their patients. And hey. The fact that the same folks writing the guidelines might be controlling your paycheck will in no way influence what you say to that patient...


Gbaji logic:

1. The government will set criteria for doctors to discuss end of life counseling with their patients.
2. The government writes paychecks for the doctors.
3. THE DOCTORS WILL TELL THE ELDERLY TO KILL THEMSELVES EVERYONE PANIC OMG HEALTHCARE IS DANGEROUS EVERYONE RUN SOCIALISTS ***** KENYAN BIRTH CERTIFICATES GIANT LIBERAL CONSPIRACY



Edited, Aug 20th 2009 4:02pm by CBD
#24 Aug 20 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I'm all for Socialializing health insurance if it means that poor people can see their doctor instead of their cold developing into pneumonia and possibly killing them.


Sure. And that's a valid and respectable position. It's just amusing how many gyrations pundits and politicians on the left go through to insist that this isn't what they're working towards...


Quote:
I don't see how it's a bad thing. At all. I think it's selfish to think, "I've got health care insurance, the people who don't can rot, it's their own fault."


Yes. That would be selfish. But that's not why conservatives oppose socialized medicine.


I've yet to hear a single valid reason why socialized medicine is not a good thing.

Quote:
Hmmm... Definition 1 fits. Clearly Obama is "adovating collective or governmental ownership and administration" of health care.

Definition 2 is what the author quoted and represents a "socialist state", not something which is "socialist" in nature. As I said above, it's not socialist "yet", but it's heading that direction.

Definition 3 is also aimed at a current state. Little harder to fit this since it's subjective. I think we can pretty safely state that working to eliminate private payers of health care in favor of government funded pools is representative of a state in-between capitalism and communism.





The only definition that would seem to fit the whole idea of "socialism" as some Americans see it, and are supported in thinking this by a fair amount of politicians would be communism, not any other idea whatsoever, no transition at all.

You can argue just what part of socialism this whole health program exactly is, it isn't seen as such nor argued against it as such. Politicians tend to score best with simplicity I suppose.
#25 Aug 20 2009 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

Quote:
I don't see how it's a bad thing. At all. I think it's selfish to think, "I've got health care insurance, the people who don't can rot, it's their own fault."


Yes. That would be selfish. But that's not why conservatives oppose socialized medicine.


Technically speaking, that's not why conservatives like you oppose the current reform. Many do oppose it for that reason.

I think I understand your reason, Gbaji. To you, the expansion of the federal government is a worse situation than the current one, with rising premiums, millions of Americans uncovered, and increasingly shoddy service and results compared to other countries. I personally have similar concerns (I have long disliked big government spending and the blossoming debt), but my fiscally conservative tendencies clash with my liberal social views. In my mind, I cannot justify sacrificing the health of millions of Americans and a more stable health care system for the status quo and less government expansion into a flawed system.

But there's the difference, I suppose.
#26 Aug 20 2009 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
publiusvarus wrote:
Tulip,

I've said most people who are uninsured are so for reasons they have control over. This country may have at most 10 million who couldn't afford simply by making changes in their lifestyle. So let's look at what it takes to insure just those; this doesn't take creating a govn plan that's going to drive private insurers out and the quality of care down.


How about we look and see what is a better option for everyone. 'Cause having an out of pocket expense on my insurance that is $5,000 is a bit ridiculous, in my opinoin, and I think that's getting to be the norm as smaller businesses struggle to keep up with the price gouging that the insurance companies are doing to get rid of undesirable clients.

And, gbaji, there is a world of difference between a "death panel" and a "death advisory board." If you can't see the difference, I pity you.
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