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Vogue model wins right to unmask offensive blogger Follow

#1 Aug 18 2009 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
A Vogue cover girl has won a precedent-setting court battle to unmask an anonymous blogger who called her a “*****” on the internet.

In a case with potentially far-reaching repercussions, Liskula Cohen sought the identity of the blogger who maligned her on the ****** in NYC blog so that she could sue him or her for defamation.

A Manhattan supreme court judge ruled that she was entitled to the information and ordered Google, which ran the offending blog, to turn it over.

Ms Cohen, a tall, Canadian blonde who has modelled for Giorgio Armani and Versace, went to court after reading the wounding anonymous comments on Google’s Blogger.com.

“I would have to say the first-place award for ‘Skankiest in NYC’ would have to go to Liskula Gentile Cohen,” the blogger “Anonymous” wrote in one posting. The blog, since removed, ridiculed the former Australian Vogue covergirl as a “40-something” who “may have been hot 10 years ago”, when she was actually 36.

Justice Joan Madden rejected the blogger’s claim that the blogs “serve as a modern-day forum for conveying personal opinions, including invective and ranting”, and should not be treated as factual assertions.

The model was looking forward last night to discovering the identity of the alleged acquaintance who insulted her. “Everybody is waiting to see who this coward is,” Steven Wagner, her lawyer, said.

Andrew Pederson, a Google spokesman, said: “We sympathise with anyone who may be the victim of cyberbullying. We also take great care to respect privacy concerns and will only provide information about a user in response to a subpoena or other court order.”


I wonder what, if any, effect this will have on future blogging or forum participation in general. Some of the things the blogger is accused of saying about this model seem mild to me.

link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6801213.ece
#2 Aug 18 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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I'd hit it.
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#3 Aug 18 2009 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
Not hot.

Goodbye freedom of speech (does this even apply to US based servers/hosting companies?). Personal opinion isn't defamation of character, is it? Does the difference between "I think you are" and "you are" matter?

Who would have to take this higher in the legal system, Google, or the anonymous blogger? Also, shouldn't the article read, "A New York county supreme court judge"?


Oh yeah, I'd hit it too.
#4 Aug 18 2009 at 11:15 PM Rating: Default
Normal guy + Internet annonymity = Jerkface

Sounds like this concept is starting to waver. It might be a good thing.
#5 Aug 18 2009 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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DsComputer wrote:
Not hot.

Goodbye freedom of speech (does this even apply to US based servers/hosting companies?). Personal opinion isn't defamation of character, is it? Does the difference between "I think you are" and "you are" matter?


Freedom of speech stops where slander/libel begin, particularly when that slander/libel has the chance of impacting the target's livelihood.

She's a model. She makes her living by looking youthful and pretty. Accusing her of being "40-something" (especially if one knows this claim to be false and willfully makes it anyway) could potentially impact her marketability and hence, her livelihood.

I do so wish people would get over this naive assumption that the concept of Freedom of Speech means you can say/write anything you feel like saying about anyone at any time. It doesn't, and it never has. You still have to be responsible for the veracity of the words you speak/write and can be held accountable if your words turn out to be false (except, y'know, if you're a notable Republican making absurd and outrageous claims about health care.)
#6 Aug 19 2009 at 12:25 AM Rating: Decent
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What a *****.

Uh oh...
#7 Aug 19 2009 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I do so wish people would get over this naive assumption that the concept of Freedom of Speech means you can say/write anything you feel like saying about anyone at any time.


Yeah, because being able to voice your opinion is a bad thing, and it's naive to think that you should be able to do so Smiley: rolleyes

"40-something" is perfectly meaningful as a metaphor, to mean "this person is a wrinkly old lady who has just crossed over from the halcyon days of youth, and no longer has aesthetic appeal, and as aesthetic appeal is a ridiculously subjective value, so is this assertion." If I think that someone is despicable, and I call them a murderous mustache twirling villain, it doesn't mean that I actually think that they have a handlebar mustache, and I shouldn't be sued when they turn out to be clean shaven; I also don't think that they have actually murdered anything (most likely) and no one in the freaking world should reasonably expect to take me seriously on that point. No one should reasonably expect some random blogger to be the ultimate authority on some *****'s age, nor whether or not she is actually a *****.

It's not like the link provides any information to judge with, but what is provided is a ridiculous travesty of justice. I'm assuming that the judge wasn't actually that stupid and made a ruling with good reason, but I hope to god it wasn't for calling her 40.
#8 Aug 19 2009 at 1:54 AM Rating: Default
There is freedom of speech. You can say whatever you want, but when it hurts/damages other people, prepare for their freedom to sue.
#9 Aug 19 2009 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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12,049 posts
Meh, she looks like she is in her 40s to me. If I hadn't read the article, I would have estimated 40. An attractive 40, but still...

She should be able to sue, and since a lawsuit can't come without the name of a person to sue (AFAIK), the identity should be disclosed. That said, I think the lawsuit should be thrown out. If you make your living based on your looks, you need to realize that SOMEONE won't find you attractive. Calling her a ***** seemed uncalled for, but not worthy of a lawsuit.
#10 Aug 19 2009 at 4:23 AM Rating: Excellent
dictionary wrote:
***** (skāngk)
n.

1. A rhythmic dance performed to reggae or ska music, characterized by bending forward, raising the knees, and extending the hands.
2. Disgusting or vulgar matter; filth.
3. One who is disgustingly foul or filthy and often considered sexually promiscuous. Used especially of a woman or girl.

intr.v


She should only sue if she's ok with having her sex life revealed in open court. Cause depending on how promiscuous (& whether or not the judge agrees that she is) she could fit the description.

& then it's not slander/libel! Smiley: schooled
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#11 Aug 19 2009 at 4:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
DsComputer wrote:
Not hot.

Goodbye freedom of speech (does this even apply to US based servers/hosting companies?). Personal opinion isn't defamation of character, is it? Does the difference between "I think you are" and "you are" matter?


Freedom of speech stops where slander/libel begin, particularly when that slander/libel has the chance of impacting the target's livelihood.

She's a model. She makes her living by looking youthful and pretty. Accusing her of being "40-something" (especially if one knows this claim to be false and willfully makes it anyway) could potentially impact her marketability and hence, her livelihood.

I do so wish people would get over this naive assumption that the concept of Freedom of Speech means you can say/write anything you feel like saying about anyone at any time. It doesn't, and it never has. You still have to be responsible for the veracity of the words you speak/write and can be held accountable if your words turn out to be false (except, y'know, if you're a notable Republican making absurd and outrageous claims about health care.)


She may actually be "40 something" because in modeling, if you are over 25 they tell you to fudge your age because it can prevent you from getting jobs. (a 40 year old won't claim to be in their 20s but they will claim to be in their 30s. a 30 year old may claim to be 25-28)
#12 Aug 19 2009 at 4:54 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's a pretty frivolous and petty lawsuit. The precedent being set, in legally forcing google to reveal private information based on nothing more than trivial forum opinion is a bit scary.

Here is what the 'defamer' wrote:
Quote:
“I would have to say the first-place award for ‘Skankiest in NYC’ would have to go to Liskula Gentile Cohen"



Hope it's appealed and she loses. Fricken thin-skinned *****.

If it truly was defamation of character or physical threats...maybe, but this is just sad. What is equally as sad is her looks and celebrity standing probably had everything to do with the courts decision.
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#13 Aug 19 2009 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, the Internet can't be the Wild West forever.
#14 Aug 19 2009 at 7:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ehhh, I see her side, I guess. She was accused of being sexually promiscuous on a web site specifically designed around identifying disgusting, sexually promiscuous women. Not only that but she was called out as the worst of the worst, and as a statement of fact (no "IMO" equivalent in that sentence).

You could say the phrasing makes it a matter of opinion, or that everyone familiar with the site knows it's all in good wholesome fun, and I'm sure his lawyer will.

But yeah, obviously she's reacting out of hurt feelings rather than any real loss, unless this web site is a lot more popular in modeling circles than it is elsewhere. I'd never heard of it before today.

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#15 Aug 19 2009 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
I don't see the problem. She feels she was wronged and she feels she has the right to a lawsuit. This isn't infringing on free speech in any way. He can still put his opinions on the internet. He just needs to be ready for the consequences.

Edited, Aug 19th 2009 10:28am by Belkira
#16 Aug 19 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
When the consequences are legal, it does infringe on free speech.
#17 Aug 19 2009 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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She could win. I don't know about NY, but publishing allegations that a person is sexually promiscuous is considered defamation per se under the laws of most states.
#18 Aug 19 2009 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
When the consequences are legal, it does infringe on free speech.


Not at all. The onus of taking responsibility for one's utterances has always been part and parcel of free speech. You can, and should be, held legally accountable when making false statements, particularly when harm to other people is a foreseeable result of those statements.

The classic example is yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. You can be held responsible for any trampling deaths that occur in the stampede that follows your utterance, because that stampede was a foreseeable harmful consequence of your utterance.

Free speech does not, and never has, meant carte blanche to say whatever we want whenever we want about whoever we want with no thought to the potential consequences. Own your words.

#19 Aug 19 2009 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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The classic example is yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. You can be held responsible for any trampling deaths that occur in the stampede that follows your utterance, because that stampede was a foreseeable harmful consequence of your utterance.


Because endangering the lives of 100 people is comparable harm to possibly endangering someone's future carer aspects because a private business might not want them anymore because she would have been blatantly lying about her qualifications for the job? Seriously? The "harm" you outlined is like me complaining to a hospital that their heart surgeon was the obgyn in disguise, and then being sued by him because he was making good money on heart surgery. Maybe the obgyn did a perfectly good job, but it's not my fault if the hospital decides to abide their own rules.
#20 Aug 19 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
When the consequences are legal, it does infringe on free speech.


Not at all. The onus of taking responsibility for one's utterances has always been part and parcel of free speech. You can, and should be, held legally accountable when making false statements, particularly when harm to other people is a foreseeable result of those statements.

The classic example is yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. You can be held responsible for any trampling deaths that occur in the stampede that follows your utterance, because that stampede was a foreseeable harmful consequence of your utterance.

Free speech does not, and never has, meant carte blanche to say whatever we want whenever we want about whoever we want with no thought to the potential consequences. Own your words.
The fire example is 'incitement'. People make false statements all the time. In this case, there is no defamation of character unless this anonymous blogger's comments cause her to lose work or something similar. There is also the matter of due diligence and expert testimony. It's quite alright for me to claim you have acne, even if it's actually chicken pox. If a doctor were to do the same, causing you improper treatment, the doctor could be held liable. So, if the blogger were a known fashion review professional, the claims might hold water. If the blogger knowingly mis-printed her age to do her harm, it could, by a loooong stretch be libel. Still, the term "40 something" could just as easily translate to the age range of 35 to 45.

As far as I'm concerned, unless it can be proven that this comment has some tangible negative effect on this women - say a modeling agency claims they read and consider this guys comments when hiring models, it's a bogus claim.







Edited, Aug 19th 2009 6:33pm by Elinda
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#21 Aug 19 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
Ambrya wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
When the consequences are legal, it does infringe on free speech.


Not at all. The onus of taking responsibility for one's utterances has always been part and parcel of free speech. You can, and should be, held legally accountable when making false statements, particularly when harm to other people is a foreseeable result of those statements.

The classic example is yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. You can be held responsible for any trampling deaths that occur in the stampede that follows your utterance, because that stampede was a foreseeable harmful consequence of your utterance.

Free speech does not, and never has, meant carte blanche to say whatever we want whenever we want about whoever we want with no thought to the potential consequences. Own your words.


We are not arguing about what should be the case.

If I wanted to yell "fire" in a crowded cinema in **** Germany, I would be able to yell "fire" in a crowded cinema in **** Germany. When free speech is restricted, it is not by preventing people from saying things by some kind of total mind control which stops them saying it, it's by locking them up for saying things you don't like. Whether you have a solid reason for censorship, for restricting free speech, it's still restricting free speech. I'll tell you waht I think the problem here is: you equate the the principle of freedom with what is good so strongly that you have trouble conceiving of something being good and restricting free speech.

Also, yelling fire in a crowded cinema is a poor example, as the people to blame for the stampede are really those in the crowd not following fire safety drills. The person who yelled fire is responsible for wasting people's time more than anything.
#22 Aug 19 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
Quote:
The classic example is yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. You can be held responsible for any trampling deaths that occur in the stampede that follows your utterance, because that stampede was a foreseeable harmful consequence of your utterance.


Because endangering the lives of 100 people is comparable harm to possibly endangering someone's future carer aspects because a private business might not want them anymore because she would have been blatantly lying about her qualifications for the job?


Now you're just being deliberately obtuse, but whatever.

The scale of the offense doesn't matter. If you're not willing to own your words and accept responsibility for them, don't put them out there. It's as simple as that. It's why we have laws against libel, slander, inciting to riot, and a lot of other offenses, laws that are intended to curtail "free speech" when it threatens to run amok and cause harm.

Internet anonymity has allowed cowards with no sense of personal accountability to run rampant and it's not a bad thing to remind people once in a while that yes, you CAN and SHOULD BE held responsible for your words.
#23 Aug 19 2009 at 8:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
Pensive the Ludicrous wrote:
Quote:
The classic example is yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. You can be held responsible for any trampling deaths that occur in the stampede that follows your utterance, because that stampede was a foreseeable harmful consequence of your utterance.


Because endangering the lives of 100 people is comparable harm to possibly endangering someone's future carer aspects because a private business might not want them anymore because she would have been blatantly lying about her qualifications for the job?


Now you're just being deliberately obtuse, but whatever.

The scale of the offense doesn't matter. If you're not willing to own your words and accept responsibility for them, don't put them out there. It's as simple as that. It's why we have laws against libel, slander, inciting to riot, and a lot of other offenses, laws that are intended to curtail "free speech" when it threatens to run amok and cause harm.

Internet anonymity has allowed cowards with no sense of personal accountability to run rampant and it's not a bad thing to remind people once in a while that yes, you CAN and SHOULD BE held responsible for your words.
And what does it mean to be 'responsible' for calling someone a *****. Jail time, a fine, put a dollar in the swear jar?
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#24 Aug 19 2009 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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paulsol wrote:
I'd hit it.
With a stick.
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#25 Aug 19 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's time that 40-something ***** moved onto the millf category, still at the bottom of course.
#26 Aug 19 2009 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
Elinda wrote:
And what does it mean to be 'responsible' for calling someone a *****. Jail time, a fine, put a dollar in the swear jar?


Most likely nothing. I imagine she'll lose her law suit. But she still has a right to try to sue him if she feels he has wronged her.
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