China?Follow

I'm pretty sure a substantial fraction of that is actually from LA.

Also, we can happily say that Gordon Brown is a lazy, corrupt, inefficient, clownish Prime Minister who enjoys inserting Candiru fish into his ***** during Cabinet Meetings. I don't think it's true, but I can say it without fear of reprisal.

There are lots of great things about China, but saying that their government is no worse than others in the West is ********* We don't imprison people for dissent. Or for asking for democracy. Or for questionning the nature of the state. Or for saying Tibet/Cumbria/Texas should be a seperate nation.

A few people have hit the nail on the head. I don't think China had improved that much, that's certainly the impression I get. It seems they have just become better at hiding their abuses.

Jophiel summed up one aspect of perceptions about Tiananmen very succinctly; it is a matter of emotion more than a question of facts:



I'm not convinced that the current system of permits, free speech zones and other limits are quite as free as they seem, but that is neither here nor there. It is a matter of perception and that is in the eyes of the beholder.

I've asked a couple of questions to see how people would respond; I'll answer questions to the best of my ability, but I'm not here to perform an extended defense of Tiananmen. Like some of the other events I mentioned, I see it as an example of the danger of using the military in a civilian environment. For some, it may hold other implications and that is perfectly reasonable. Those who have responded have responded in good faith and I appreciate it.



They were disappointed and unhappy, I wouldn't say that rises to mistreatment. The states that come to mind are New York, Connecticut and Ohio. One story that stood out for me was the student who got stopped by classmates who insisted she look at a series of pictures about Tiananmen and told her the Chinese government was evil because they were communists. Take the usual laundry list of complaints, at one time or another the students seem to have been braced with all of them. As I said several posts ago, some of these kids weren't even born in 1989; there really isn't much they can say to defuse the situation. Vancar seems to have had some unfortunately similar experiences in China.

edit for typo

Edited, Aug 6th 2009 10:30am by Rhodekylle

A hell of a lot freer than most places. Plus, you can ***** about the "free speech zones" and permits without getting arrested and sent off to parts unknown. Hell, even if you break those laws, you're likely to come off unscathed or with a ticket. There's problems enough with civil rights in the US but our freedom to assemble is really pretty solid.

Sure enough. And I don't condone giving visiting students crap about it any more than I condone giving American tourists crap about Bush & Iraq. But it's a perfectly valid reason to think poorly of the Chinese government and the existing system in China.

Some have, some haven't. If I remember correctly she had and that was part of the reason she was wondering where they got off acting like that.

Last night, I was checking references as I wrote. I pulled up Wikipedia's entries for Tiananmen, Mao, the Red Guard, the Cultural Revolution from a standard home connection. I didn't have any problem. This isn't to say that it might not all be blocked tomorrow, but the blockages are possibly less dramatic than the news makes them sound.

There are plenty of uninformed students, but that tends to be more because they rely too much on memorizing their books and fail to be aware of the world (and China) in general.

That you know of. Maybe you were getting sterilized pages

I am an out of work machinist in USA, and China has a direct effect on manufacturing in this country let me tell you some background info on this subject.

Back in the 60's-70's the first CNC machine was invented in USA for the Boeing company as a way to make high tolerance aircraft parts. This technology was built on the years and years of manufacturing R&D our country, shop owners, and workers as a whole learned from working and developing smarter, faster, and more accurate ways to make things.

The first generation of this machining technology is called NC (numerical control) which was a type of machine that was programed to make parts on a "player piano" style tape feed. Todays CNC's (computer numerical control) uses its own programing language to do the same, ie make parts.

Now these machines are pricey, and other countries have their own machines that they to have created from their years of experience in this very important field of any countries economy. But China Stole our machine designs, reversed engineered them, and pumped out cookie cutter versions of our machines.

Now to power these machines software called "CAD & CAM" (computer aided design & computer aided machining) are needed for the more complex 3-D parts. These software packages are also very expensive. China stole these software packages as well. So now in China they have an entire manufacturing trade, based off stolen technology that they didn't have to pay or work for, using software that they also didn't have to pay or work for. Seemingly overnight they had comparable manufacturing technology that the rest of the world took years to attain.

In the USA a single machinist is needed to run 3 separate machines at the same time. In China a single machine gets 5 Chinese to work on it.

My Point

USA's entire manufacturing field is dying. Being undercut by China's penny paid working class, using technology stolen from us in the first place. Drive by the nearest industrial park by you, and look at the empty shops, warehouses and buildings. China has a large roll in this. Im not going to say its 100% Chinas fault but it certainly is a factor needing to be considered.

Of course once China had this technology they needed all the tools to make it work, and guess who went running? Every Toolmaker in the world! They didn't care, all they saw was the demand in China for things that they didn't have themselves, and the world ran in with hands out. Which to me is even MORE retarded.
"I see a fancy new machine that looks exactly like the ones my country took years to make, need some tools for it? It will cost ya"

FAIL all around except for China they WIN

That the free market is working exactly as intended?

I would have to disagree

from wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market



Stealing technology does not a free market make.

Also China is not bound by many of the laws that we in the states are. One of the posts earlier in this very thread talks about how bad the pollution is there. How many recalls of products has been made from simple QC (quality control) steps being skipped. You like lead in your tooth paste? How about in your children's toys?

But honestly for every good company there is a bad one. That is true anywhere in the world. Unfortunately China has such a large percentage of the worlds population that the numbers for good versus bad is not as equal, especially considering the total lack of QC and control of its companies and products, then it should be. And those numbers will never be disclosed by their government, so nobody can truly say how bad or good it really is. The shear size and population of the country really makes it hard to fully understand. They make so many things a bad product here or there is bound to happen. But times that by the number of hands that it takes to make something, and the amount of mistakes will be bigger in a country with a large fraction of the worlds population.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO
How many Chinese companies you think are actually certified? Half? More? Less? Again the world will never know because their government will never disclose such information.

Heres an article that has some interesting numbers and facts
http://www.automation.com/resources-tools/articles-white-papers/articles-by-jim-pinto/global-manufacturing-150-the-china-challenge

Im not blaming anyone specifically for my job so the south park comments can be left unsaid
(spare some change?) lol south park rules

But I just wanted to add what I know to be true about a trade that I love, but can no longer practice.





Edited, Aug 7th 2009 12:37am by FnordDooMtaru

Personally I think that the chinese businesses are not to blame but the government is. Once the government realized they needed to have a strong manufacturing base to compete in this global market, regardless of how many chinese they handed shovels and files to, which was the norm up until then. They HAD to steal our tech. Then they handed it over to the manufacturing companies. But don't fool yourself into thinking that they stole it to make their people money, it was to keep their military on par with the rest of the worlds. The businesses were literally handed this tech and told to make it go by their government. You think the average machinist in china had any idea what machinists around the world were doing at that time?

See if company A steals company B's product, action can be taken against them. But if government who doesn't care about patents, steals from company A, there is no recourse other then company A's government getting involved. But NO action was taken. In fact the opposite happened and company C who made widgets for the product of company A ran straight to company B who was handed said stolen products, and sold them the widgets just the same.

China has no respect for other countries intellectual property. Because of their own views, they are Communist and what their government wants from their people they take for the greater good. But that does not (should not) extend beyond their border.

So many wars have been fought over "owning" one thing or another. But in this case nothing was done at all. Which is my main gripe about the whole thing. They stole our knowledge. China never had to do steps 1 and 2 of the learning curve for this technology, they just jumped right onto the same step the rest of the world was on without working for it. Then under cut the global prices of goods with their legen of workers, unsafe practices, and un-environment friendly cost effective methods.



Again it is not free market, property rights are a part of a "free market" and this is far from it. See in a free market if you have something I want to sell I have to buy it from you first. Not steal it. The buying and selling of stolen goods is called the black market. Where supply and demand also have influence over prices and availability, which seems to be your main point.

The real crap shoot is that the rest of the world just kinda rolled over and let it happen. I guess the real question is if I make a product using stolen technology ie black market machines and software, would the products I made also be black market by proxy? hmm




Edited, Aug 7th 2009 3:00am by FnordDooMtaru

Did you even look at the Links I posted?


By definition, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.
Seems pretty solid to me. Just because one nation doesn't care about another nations property, either intellectual or actual goods, should NOT absolve them of their wrong doing.

You seem to have no point what so ever, Your posts share no opinion on the matter, they amount to a gasoline covered hook, baiting ever so needlessly for flame. Maybe you should learn about this subject before sharing your uninformed narrow minded opinions.

To be fair china did have manufacturing abilities long before the modernization of the trade. But they got all that from their treaties with Russia. Again not even their own tech, but handed down Russian tech. Thats what made their guns, their planes, their battleships and submarines. This is all fact that historians have documented since then. They even recently released KGB communications between Mao and Stalin reassuring these facts.



So theft is your answer?
Thats what international relationships is all about. It is within our right hold our hands close to our vest with technologies, what did china have to offer the world at that time? They, to this day plow their fields with Oxen. To this day large regions still have no electricity. Yet over night they were able to become a power house of goods production. (not literally overnight but since they STOLE the tech to be competitive in the first place, skipping years of R&D, putting them ahead of were they really should be)

Like I said in my first post China WON. I blame our country just as much if not more then any other including china for not only letting it happen, but doing nothing about it once it did.

That is the whole problem. People should care. If you invent something tomorrow and I steal it from you, and mass produce it, I seriously doubt that will be your attitude. I just don't see how anyone effected by this, which every one is, could have such a head in the sand thought process. But I guess its easier to be happy that way.

In any case I have said my piece on this matter. Perhaps adding something worthwhile to the thoughts of this threads readers, and that was all I really wanted to do, so Thank you for your time.