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Thanks for the edumacation. I feel smarter already.



Technically, geographically or ethnically ......



Really? People should look at atlases more oftener then.


Thats really stretching the concept of 'next door'. Honest.



Glad to hear it. Keep up the good work!

Honestly, I think Paul's an OK guy.

Or it could be an entirely true inductive observation built from his anecdotes and experiences, or a statistical observation of very real trends and values. Not everyone does value life. Is it that odd to imagine that different cultures will express different values? It's not like we're born loving everyone.

Dismissing the claim as even possible because it may arise through a perception and not observation is not only just as racist a perception, but also willfully ignorant.

Oh, you quoted me, but didn't really mean me. Sure.


I don't think I've ever seen someone so full of himself. You interpret a lot into what I wrote.

Realising that other people may see things differently and have other values is racism? LOL. You know, you can observe and even accept other opinions without patronizing them. That concept may be novel to you, but it isn't to most of us.

Ok, looks to me like you're changing track, but I'll try and respond.


No you didn't. You first claimed I had no idea, then distorted it and said I was racist.


In this thread, I think I was the only one who said it. I said it based on my experiences. I never spoke about swathes, I never spoke about "us" and "them".

I'm not saying other cultures don't have emotions or feelings. I'm saying they have different values about individual life. For example people who sell their kids (not necessarily to get blown up, but into slavery and prostitution) or people who blow themselves up in religious fanaticism. Or people who go to war and more or less want to die because they think they will end up in a better place.
I personally think they don't value the individual's life the way I (and most Westerners) do. That is why I said life, for some, is cheap. From our perspective, not theirs.

Do you think everyone the world over should have the same values and opinions about life?

Well.. to an extent, yes.

Actually no, not to an extent. They absolutely should.

He asked if it ought to be that way, not if I expected it to actually happen.

I assumed the proof of the statement was evident in the OP. A group of people is strapping explosives to their children. Yes, they may feel they have good cause, they don't have tanks and stuff, but still, just the action, can be a measure of valuing an individual life less another group of people that could never justify, or even contemplate, such an act.

I don't think certain regions of the world value life more or less than other regions. I wouldn't think of it as a regional problem. It's more that the people who value human life less, in this case the Taliban, hold more political power in those regions. The Afghan citizens living under an intolerably insane religious "government" probably value their own lives very much, but their government doesn't, and so it straps bombs to them and puts them on buses. If the Taliban were just a minority fringe group instead of the major power players there wouldn't be a problem. They'd just be another nutty religious group existing off donations from scared people.

So, no, there's no racism at all in saying that Afghanistan is a place where life is less valuable. You're not saying that Arabs hate life, you're just saying that the government of Afghanistan doesn't care about its citizens. Life is less valued there. The Taliban doesn't give a **** about the people it rules. It cares about some psychotic religious ideology that starts with as many bombs as they can find and ends with the world on fire.

I think where i struggle is when you have certain aspects of society break down. I think that there are necessary evils in war and I don't know much about what it is like to be drawn to the Taliban-- it seems a cross between the reasons that so many young men internationally fought in the Spanish civil war (like Ernest Hemingway, who covered the war and was passionate about it, etc, based on ideals) and the ugliness of defending your sovereignty. I don't know. Terrorism is often the effort of people who don't feel like they have much else to lose. But you know, I don't know.

I think there is a different with child soldiers. Sure, I can see kids being young. Hell, I know guys who went over to Vietnam at 17 and there being something similar to teenagers being in the army. However, I also know people who were in the killing fields of Cambodia or who were conscripted to be child soldiers, dealing with a level of trauma I have no way of comprehending. There are degrees of societal annihilation and exploitation. I don't agree with most of the US's nation building and I think we're guilty of plenty of atrocities, including in this war (I've always protested the involvement in Iraq--both now and in 1991) but I think the Taliban is a pretty brutal and indefensible regime. My only expectation is that we should be less brutal and all actions, aggressive or otherwise, aren't the same. I think the Taliban is so destabilizing in the region--not just Afghanistan but in Pakistan and other areas too. I'm not sure how much we can have an effect on them though.

I think the biggest reason, though, that the US seems like we value life more is economic. I think poverty drives more of these wars and spurns people to radicalization than anything else. I think we like to say it's religious so we can pretend we have no responsibility for what's occurred. It is not insignificant that Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries in the world, both because of war and creating more conflict.




Edited, Jul 10th 2009 7:05pm by Annabella

"Just" is a very silly word when people use it in that context.

*edit* actually "Just" is always a silly word no matter the context

Edited, Jul 11th 2009 8:44am by Busaman