publiusvarus wrote:
And yes this bill will increase your cost of living.
By $175 annually in 2020. That's 48 cents a day.
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Sure will.
By $175 annually in 2020. That's 48 cents a day.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
That's an MMO subscription! 
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
publiusvarus wrote:
Let me counter with nuh uh it'll increase it 10,000k per citizen next year alone.
Since yours sound made up, I'm guessing they were the Heritage Foundation numbers.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
publiusvarus wrote:
Yeah that CBO report also said;
So we know they're full of sh*t.
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By annually reducing the supply of these permits, the cap-and-trade legislation written by House Democrats Henry Waxman of California and Ed Markey of Massachusetts would lower the limit on greenhouse gases to 17 percent less than 2005 levels by 2020
So we know they're full of sh*t.
Nah. Technically, that's a true statement. If they reduce the supply of those permits as planned, the "limit" on greenhouse gases will be 17 percent lower. Of course, this says nothing about the actual impact on total greenhouses gases produced as a result of the bill. It just says that the limit they place on industries operating within the reach of US law will be reduced by that amount.
The flaw is that pretty much everyone knows that the way this reduction in the US will be accomplished is by some percentage of our industry to offshore to other nations. Since most nations we'd see our industry offshore to (all actually) have less stringent pollution control laws than existing US laws even before the cap and trade limits are applied, this will almost certainly result in that industry producing more pollution, including greenhouse gases, per unit of productivity than they were producing before the introduction of the cap and trade laws.
The net global effect is to increase the total output of greenhouse gases, not reduce it. It's ridiculous to assume that reductions in those emissions will occur even to a small degree as a result of improved control systems. It will be vastly less expensive to simply offshore instead. In the meantime though US companies will be paying taxes in the form of the cap and trade in order to continue doing business in the US.
The net effect is a massive tax on US industry which we'll all bear the burden of, a loss of jobs in the US due to offshoring of industry, and an increase in total global greenhouse gas emissions and other pollutants as well. It's lose, lose, lose.
It makes you wonder who's the winner here...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
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Also, where did you get the idea that the bills would get higher?
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My utility bills are low enough that I probably wouldn't care, anyway.
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World warming or cooling, we're slowly coating the surface of the planet with plastic, and anything that stops that is fine by me.
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By $175 annually in 2020. That's 48 cents a day
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That's an MMO subscription
Politician's go to bed at night and say thanks to what ever God they believe in for voters like you................
Whatever. After Dubya's bosom buddies at Enron spent two or three years fUCking California over I got used to stupidly expensive energy bills. As far as I'm concerned capitalists as a whole have no one but themselves to blame when their toys get taken away from them.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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Whatever. After Dubya's bosom buddies at Enron spent two or three years ******* California over I got used to stupidly expensive energy bills. As far as I'm concerned capitalists as a whole have no one but themselves to blame when their toys get taken away from them.
Quick history lesson, Enron did what they did under the Clinton Presidency, the final collapsed happened under Bush but the company was already collapsing long before GW got into office.
And Capitalism is not reason for California being in the mess it's in and Capatalism is not the reason for the economic meltdown.
Decades of out of control spending on both the State and Federal level is.
Decades of Politicians wasting billions of dollars and then coming up with new taxes to cover the fact they mismanaged the public money is.
And decades of liberals trying to engineer a social utopia is.
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Quick history lesson, Enron did what they did under the Clinton Presidency, the final collapsed happened under Bush but the company was already collapsing long before GW got into office.
Yeah, I don't give a ****. I'm not complaining about the gummint, I'm complaining about money grabbing aSSholes.
Nor am I complaining about current conditions. Do you read, at all? This all happened years ago, and certainly had an effect on my power bills at the time. Once they got their peepees smacked the situation got better, thanks for asking.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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I'm complaining about money grabbing @#%^s
Then maybe you should direct your anger at the politicians instead of posting statements like
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My utility bills are low enough that I probably wouldn't care, anyway.
Edited, Jul 7th 2009 11:39pm by ThiefX
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Yes, If we learned nothing else from Dubya, we learned that them thar eggheads better return the results we want.
This mightt be true, but it has very little truthiness.
Good job California is full of pot-smoking hippies!
LINK
Who would've thunk economical salvation would be shaped like a bong?
Peace out
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Vendors of "medical marijuana" at legal herbal clinics in Oakland, California are offering to pay increased taxes in a move that many believe could save the state from bankruptcy.
Who would've thunk economical salvation would be shaped like a bong?
Peace out
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.
paulsol wrote:
Peace out
Eh, it's not like we were using it anyway.
gbaji wrote:
Since most nations we'd see our industry offshore to (all actually) have less stringent pollution control laws than existing US laws even before the cap and trade limits are applied, this will almost certainly result in that industry producing more pollution, including greenhouse gases, per unit of productivity than they were producing before the introduction of the cap and trade laws.
The net global effect is to increase the total output of greenhouse gases, not reduce it.
The net global effect is to increase the total output of greenhouse gases, not reduce it.
There's also the question of why this concern for keeping American businesses domestic didn't exist for the GOP (or you, looking at old threads) back during the outsourcing debates. Why, you don't need to worry about the businesses going abroad, Gbaji -- all those workers will just retrain into new and exciting careers, remember?
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
ThiefX wrote:
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I'm complaining about money grabbing @#%^s
Then maybe you should direct your anger at the politicians instead of posting statements like
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My utility bills are low enough that I probably wouldn't care, anyway.
Edited, Jul 7th 2009 11:39pm by ThiefX
Yes, you see there's a time line here which you are somehow failing utterly to grasp.
I'd like to believe it's deliberate, I really would.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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Whatever. After Dubya's bosom buddies at Enron spent two or three years ******* California over I got used to stupidly expensive energy bills. As far as I'm concerned capitalists as a whole have no one but themselves to blame when their toys get taken away from them
Ummm... Gray Davis
I have less concern about the long-term, idealogical problems in this debacle than I do about the timing.
From a Californians viewpoint, I know we have the money & I know we have the resources and technology....
I just find it amazing that we are unable to use either LOL
This is a TOTAL failure of Public Utility Admin.
in ANY of these situations you MUST start from a minimum of acknowledging the current NEED, and being physically ABLE to meet it
Personally I would like to see Tidal Flow Hydroelectric generation stations (& desalination plants for that matter) but as long as Idealogues & Union powerhouse lobbyists are gridlocking us, it wont happen.
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Personally I would like to see Tidal Flow Hydroelectric generation stations (& desalination plants for that matter) but as long as Idealogues & Union powerhouse lobbyists are gridlocking us, it wont happen.
And energy companies and the politicians they've bought. Ignore them at your peril.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
ThiefX wrote:
Decades of out of control spending on both the State and Federal level is.
I thought most the expert types were claiming the biggest single cause was the sub-prime debacle. You can blame that on the gov if you'd like.
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
publiusvarus wrote:
It is certain the China and every other country the businesses would relocate to won't have to deal with the cap and trade nonsense. So yeah the amount of pollution would exceed any amount the US decreases.
Well, a factory only produces a finite amount of pollution even on its worst days. So, no, it's not certain. And some of the worst offenders, such as power plants, by their very nature can't be relocated.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I've finally had some time to read some of this bill (it's HUGE!!).
I think it has a chance. The scientific community has actually managed to convince many law-makers of the reality of climate change. Industry knows 'something' is coming down the pike - they need guidance - sooner rather than later.
I think it has a chance. The scientific community has actually managed to convince many law-makers of the reality of climate change. Industry knows 'something' is coming down the pike - they need guidance - sooner rather than later.
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
publiusvarus wrote:
Except in the US we have certain emission standards that other countries don't have.
Yeah, you're missing the point.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
publiusvarus wrote:
It is certain the China and every other country the businesses would relocate to won't have to deal with the cap and trade nonsense. So yeah the amount of pollution would exceed any amount the US decreases.
Probably not. A savy businessperson should be able to create wealth for their company with carbon credit trading. This is one of the bigger critiques of the bill.
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
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