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#77 Jul 01 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Turi,

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If he was braking the law, let the executive branch deal with him


The ex-president was head of the executive branch. That's like saying a president should be responsible for arresting himself for making unconstitutional laws. Do you see how absurd that is?

Now members of the executive branch are above the law or what? You know, they can arrest each other, they don't have to do it themselves. Like policemen arresting other policemen for commiting crimes. Is that concept so outlandish to you or are you just playing dumb now?
He never made any laws. He attempted an illegal constitutional change.
You just make **** up and it's becoming tiring.

publiusvarus wrote:
And unlike Iran this was a mainly non-violent and no bloodshed action taken by the Honduran judiciary.

You people sure didn't make near the fuss when Iran was conducting mass executions after their elections. And all Obama had to say then was how we shouldn't "meddle" in other countries civil wars. What's changed? Besides the people actually deposing an attempt to turn their govn into a dictatorship.

Who's "you people"?
So now it's about Iran? Can you link me news of those mass executions. I didn't read about them. Only about the demonstrations with some clashes.

I don't live in the US, so I didn't closely follow Obama's reaction to either. But as far as I can tell, he didn't actually do anything in both cases. Did he?

And it wasn't "the people" doing the "deposing", it was the army ousting an elected president. You're a bit slow on the uptake.

You keep running out of arguments and then just change tack.
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#78 Jul 01 2009 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Professor Turicus wrote:
You keep running out of arguments and then just change tack.
Hi, welcome to Forum=4. I see that you're new here and haven't met Varus.

Edited, Jul 1st 2009 2:55pm by Jophiel
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#79 Jul 01 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Hi, welcome to Forum=4. I see that you're new here and haven't met Varus.

Hai Smiley: grin
I am. And I have, but the pattern hadn't emerged yet. Smiley: rolleyes
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#80REDACTED, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 12:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
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#81 Jul 01 2009 at 12:13 PM Rating: Default
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Turi,

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And it wasn't "the people" doing the "deposing", it was the army ousting an elected president. You're a bit slow on the uptake.


Actually it was the attorney general under orders from the supreme court. So no it wasn't "the army". We keep going over the same things because you refuse to aknowledge the facts as they exist. And all you can seem to come up with is some transparent and feeble attempt to say he violated UN law. Oh and keep saying military coup a few more times. I'm sure if you say it enough that'll make it true.

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#82 Jul 01 2009 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Actually it was the attorney general under orders from the supreme court. So no it wasn't "the army". We keep going over the same things because you refuse to aknowledge the facts as they exist. And all you can seem to come up with is some transparent and feeble attempt to say he violated UN law. Oh and keep saying military coup a few more times. I'm sure if you say it enough that'll make it true.

No, the attorney general issued an arrest warrant, which is still pending because he's in Costa Rica. The army forced him out of the country. Read here. Even Fox calls it a coup.

You don't even read my posts. I never said Zelaya violated international law. I said renouncing (the last) citizenship is in opposition to international rules. That's why I was wondering if Honduras even is party to that treaty. If anything, Zelaya would be at the receiving end of that. But I haven't read anything yet about him losing his citizenship, so it's not that important.

Provide some backup for what you say or just shut up.
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#83REDACTED, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 12:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Turi,
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#84 Jul 01 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Professor Turicus wrote:
Provide some backup for what you say or just shut up.


Neither of those will happen, just FYI.
Quote:

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needed to be carted off at gunpoint in the dead of night, wearing his jammies



Kind of like the gestapo hauling off Elian Gonazalez.


lolwut?

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The former president is known to have close ties with Castro and Chavez.


Not a crime.
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And that Obama only seems to want to meddle in foreign countries affairs when some dictator is losing control.


I missed it, who was the dictator here? Oh, the legally elected president overthrown by a military coup? I think you used the wrong word there, Varrus. You meant to say "when some left-wing leader." Still a senseless and incorrect rant, but then at least the title is correct.
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#85 Jul 01 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Turi,

Quote:
Provide some backup for what you say or just shut up.


You mean besides the Honduran constitution?

Remind me again what "backup" you've provided?

You mean the part about losing citizenship that I used the original text? And which apparently wasn't even enforced? Or do we have evidence he lost citizenship?

So yes, besides the Honduran constitution. For example about him actually losing citizenship. Legal reasons for expelling him from the country. Supporting evidence that it wasn't the army that expelled him. You know, the stuff you claim has happened or is the basis for events.

Did you miss the two links in my last post? Smiley: rolleyes
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#86 Jul 01 2009 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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publiusvarus wrote:
Turi,

Quote:
Provide some backup for what you say or just shut up.


You mean besides the Honduran constitution?

Remind me again what "backup" you've provided?


Again, show that the legal process was followed. That's the "backup" desired here. That he
A. Lost his citizenship
B. Was impeached.
C. Was arrested, tried, and found guilty.

All of those (or at least the impeachment) would be needed for the deposition to be legal. And all of those would involve some sort of legal or congressional process.
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#87REDACTED, Posted: Jul 01 2009 at 12:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
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#88 Jul 01 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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The guy who took power from the ousted President is likely not the most neutral source of information. Smiley: lol
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#89 Jul 01 2009 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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publiusvarus wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
Micheletti, speaking to Colombia's Caracol Radio on Tuesday, insisted it was Zelaya who had violated the constitution and that his court-ordered removal was legal.

"We have not committed a coup d'etat, but a constitutional succession," he said.

About 5,000 anti-Zelaya demonstrators gathered at a main plaza in Tegucigalpa on Tuesday to celebrate his ouster.

"Freedom has won, peace has triumphed, Honduras has won," newly appointed deputy foreign minister Marta Lorena Casco told the crowd. She said Zelaya had planned to make the country a socialist pawn. "Chavez consumed Venezuela, then Bolivia, after that Ecuador and Nicaragua, but in Honduras that didn't happen," she said.


Works for me.

Of course if you're a pro-socialist dictator supporting type you might not go for this.


Of course it works for you; it's the hand-picked interim president celebrating his victory.

To be fair, the successor would be the legitimate person... if the laws had been followed.

Personally, I think Zelaya should be out. He seemed to break the laws. That said, the law should have been followed in order to get him impeached. Heck, according to the Constitution of Honduras, you only need a majority of Congress to agree to impeachment (it reads very poorly in that section, to be fair). We've still seen nothing to say that happened.
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#90 Jul 01 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Browsing around, I saw someone (well, multiple someones) bring up an amusing obvious point: If Zelaya was attempting to become dictator for life, he was going about it the worst possible way. The chance that a referendum would hit the ballot in November, a Constitutional National Assembly created and a new constitution allowing Zelaya to run drawn up, agreed to and ratified before November 2010 is approximately nil.
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#91 Jul 02 2009 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I'm no Honduran legal expert, nor do I even play one on the Googlenetz
Wait, we need an e-lawyer?

Oh Nio...

:-D
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#92 Jul 02 2009 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The problem is that this all happened without an impeachment process after a military arrest. Until the president is charged with the crime, tried, convicted, and impeached, seizing power is unlawful.

Wrong laws. Read the Honduran Constitution sometime. Political philosophy aside, the law was followed here.


Personally, I think Zelaya should be out. He seemed to break the laws. That said, the law should have been followed in order to get him impeached. Heck, according to the Constitution of Honduras, you only need a majority of Congress to agree to impeachment (it reads very poorly in that section, to be fair). We've still seen nothing to say that happened.

The law says nothing of impeachment. Once again, give reading the law a shot before commenting on it. The law says that anyone who shows intent to circumvent the limitations on executive power in the Constitution is IMMEDIATELYout of power. There is no provision of due process. There is no requirement of impeachment.

We can discuss if this is a poor way to run a country or not, but the provision of the Constitution is that anyone clearly attempting to maintain power longer than provided is to be immediately removed.
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#93 Jul 02 2009 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

The problem is that this all happened without an impeachment process after a military arrest. Until the president is charged with the crime, tried, convicted, and impeached, seizing power is unlawful.

Wrong laws. Read the Honduran Constitution sometime. Political philosophy aside, the law was followed here.


Personally, I think Zelaya should be out. He seemed to break the laws. That said, the law should have been followed in order to get him impeached. Heck, according to the Constitution of Honduras, you only need a majority of Congress to agree to impeachment (it reads very poorly in that section, to be fair). We've still seen nothing to say that happened.

The law says nothing of impeachment. Once again, give reading the law a shot before commenting on it. The law says that anyone who shows intent to circumvent the limitations on executive power in the Constitution is IMMEDIATELYout of power. There is no provision of due process. There is no requirement of impeachment.

We can discuss if this is a poor way to run a country or not, but the provision of the Constitution is that anyone clearly attempting to maintain power longer than provided is to be immediately removed.

Can you quote the relevant articles? I skimmed the constitution and couldn't find this.
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#94 Jul 03 2009 at 3:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Can you quote the relevant articles? I skimmed the constitution and couldn't find this.


ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la República.

El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, asà como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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#95 Jul 03 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Englais, por favor...
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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#96 Jul 03 2009 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quite interesting. So he ceases being president immediately when he tries to become president or vicepresident again. But who legally establishes this? It just happens magically without a court?

And in fact, that's not what he was trying to do, the way I understood it, although it may have been his ultimate goal. He wanted to hold a vote whether there should be a constitutional change. This constitutional amendmend could have (or maybe not) allowed for re-elections. Presumably, a change of article 42 would also mean a change of article 239. That's what the constitutional change committee would have worked out, I guess.

I am no lawyer. But whatever the case, this should not be enforced by the army. There's police and judges for this.
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#97 Jul 03 2009 at 5:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Professor Turicus wrote:
I am no lawyer. But whatever the case, this should not be enforced by the army. There's police and judges for this.

Says who? The US Constitution? Your nation's charter? International law?

What does the Honduran constitution say about using the military in such a fashion?
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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#98 Jul 03 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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TEGUCIGALPA -- The military officers who rushed deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya out of the country Sunday committed a crime but will be exonerated for saving the country from mob violence, the army's top lawyer said.

In an interview with The Miami Herald and El Salvador's elfaro.net, army attorney Col. Herberth Bayardo Inestroza acknowledged that top military brass made the call to forcibly remove Zelaya -- and they circumvented laws when they did it.

It was the first time any participant in Sunday's overthrow admitted committing an offense and the first time a Honduran authority revealed who made the decision that has been denounced worldwide.

"We know there was a crime there," said Inestroza, the top legal advisor for the Honduran armed forces. "In the moment that we took him out of the country, in the way that he was taken out, there is a crime. Because of the circumstances of the moment this crime occurred, there is going to be a justification and cause for acquittal that will protect us."
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#99 Jul 03 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok then, that's what we needed to hear.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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#100 Jul 03 2009 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Quite interesting. So he ceases being president immediately when he tries to become president or vicepresident again. But who legally establishes this? It just happens magically without a court?

No provision is made. Look, I don't moonlight as a Honduran legal scholar, but the point is this wasn't a traditional S American coup where a cabal led by a strong man general overthrows a benevolent democratic ruler.

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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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#101REDACTED, Posted: Jul 06 2009 at 5:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Smashed,
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