It's a hell of a lot different working two minimum-wage jobs when you're young and healthy and in college than when you're middle aged and either missing having a family or barely scraping by to provide for them.
Young people can give up the margins, no problem. I did it too; you're not special.
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In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
Quote:
Young people can give up the margins, no problem. I did it too; you're not special.
I don't believe that I'm special. What I am is extremely incompetent at living/acting independently. It's irritating when someone tells me that I don't try. I try plenty. I also fail a lot. I've failed at basically every "real life" activity that I've attempted. I will certainly keep trying some more in the future, but I've honestly gotten used to failing. I don't expect nor want someone to feel sorry for me or really even make accommodations for that failure simply because I suck at marketing myself and working business, but I should not let someone tell me that's it for lack of want, or due to some entitlement complex.
***
I'm not sure what you mean by margins exactly, also. Excesses?
Edited, Jun 25th 2009 11:34pm by Pensive
catwho wrote:
Well, Athens isn't exactly rural. But ATL is a major metro area; of course rent is going to be higher there than in the smaller cities around here.
I had a huge studio in Torrence Ca for 750 per month including utilities and a parking space. (parking spaces, most places charge for.) Our apartment also had the only yard (fenced in). However it took lots of searching to find it. Most things around that price range weren't in nice areas - we just got damn lucky.
As for jobs, depending on where you live, Gbajis suggestion might not work. Some people can't afford to move so they are stuck taking low wage jobs and not getting to go to college because there might not be one nearby. (online is out of the question because they can't afford it).
There was a study out (and I can't remember who or where but it was mentioned in a book I recently read about trying to live on a minimum wage job...) that suggested that jobs have changed - people who start at a company can no longer expect to receive the kind of growth their forefathers had because the upper end of the company wants to keep costs low so their own paychecks are high.
Pensive wrote:
Quote:
Young people can give up the margins, no problem. I did it too; you're not special.
I don't believe that I'm special. What I am is extremely incompetent at living/acting independently. It's irritating when someone tells me that I don't try. I try plenty. I also fail a lot. I've failed at basically every "real life" activity that I've attempted. I will certainly keep trying some more in the future, but I've honestly gotten used to failing. I don't expect nor want someone to feel sorry for me or really even make accommodations for that failure simply because I suck at marketing myself and working business, but I should not let someone tell me that's it for lack of want, or due to some entitlement complex.
***
I'm not sure what you mean by margins exactly, also. Excesses?
Edited, Jun 25th 2009 11:34pm by Pensive
Well, first, that wasn't @ you. I was replying to the default idiot who was saying it's just fine to work two or three minimum wage jobs because he had done it. Why you thought it was about you I have no idea.
And by margins I mean margins. Spare. Leftover. A margin of error, a margin of safety.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
gbaji wrote:
Presumably, there have to be enough potential jobs for the workers or the system doesn't work regardless of what mechanism we use.
So you're suggesting that any system has to have (potentially or in actuality) 0% unemployment to work? Wow, you really don't know much about economics, do you?
Gbaji wrote:
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The bottom line: Other businesses are, on average, not good enough to use up the unemployment lyin' around. You cannot expand fast enough to do it alone. Why pay more? We could also look at a 'union' of business leaders, fixing wages on the hush, though we'd have to talk about game theory for that one.
That doesn't really fix the problem though, does it? If there's actually not enough demand for the labor market, then there's not enough labor productivity to provide for all the people. Giving them all jobs paying more than they are worth is silly and counterproductive.
What are you talking about? There are enough fish for everyone to be as fat and bloated as an elephant seal. They are producing enough fish, but the system is distributing them so the top 1% gets more fish than the other 99%. Pretty shoddy stsem, huh?
Badger Eye wrote:
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So wait, you do want the freedom to make unions banned? Make your mind up, Gbaji.
It's telling that you automatically assume that if something is undesirable, that it must be banned. Very very telling.
So you admit that a system without "union meddling" is not going to happen? Nice. Why, then, do you talk about a system free of union meddling? Pretty stupid of you, am I right?
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The problem is that you're assuming a worst case scenario. Clearly people can and do earn enough money in free market jobs to make a good living. So while some people may not, they *could*. If they make the right choices, get into the right jobs, and do well at them. You're assuming that because it's possible to not earn enough money to live off of, that we should chuck the whole system out.
Yeah, I'm saying we shouldn't let people die if we can help it. I'm a radical.
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You want to assume that by creating unions and government wage control systems, you are fighting against a system that rewards only some, while penalizing others. But the problem is that you're replacing it with one that does the same thing. However, instead of rewarding the most productive laborers, while penalizing the least productive, your system rewards those who've joined unions or are working for/under some government wage program. Those groups aren't guaranteed *not* to be the most productive, but they aren't guaranteed *to* be the most productive either.
Prepare to be enlightened, o grasshopper.
Capitalism does not reward the most productive. That you don't understand this is hilarious, because it's so obviously not the case. Nikola Tesla was an obsessive workaholic, and thus highly productive, and impacted society for the better far more than your average capitalist. Yet he died in the gutter because he wasn't very good at working the capitalist system, and that is the skill that the capitalist system rewards you for above all others. It's one of the system's many, many flaws.
Gbaji wrote:
Unions only work if a relatively small percentage of the labor is in one.
Oh dear, somebody better tell Sweden! 78% of their workforce is a part of a union, and far more used to be - frankly, I'm astonished that their economy has coped with so many of these unions. After all, economies can only handle a relatively small percentage (percentages are all relative, by the way - or do you perhaps mean small relative to something besides the number of peope in labour? The length of a peace of string, perhaps?) of their workforce being employed in union jobs.
I forgot to use the fish analogy much in this post, sorry about that. I know Republicans are very fond of fish analogies.
Edited, Jun 26th 2009 1:01pm by Kavekk
ThiefX wrote:
That post was refering to the post made by Pensive stating that it was impossible to live on min wage.
I would have assumed that Pensive was talking about working one minimum wage job. In fact, I would go as far as saying that's a pretty obvious assumption.
Kavek,
Well socialism certainly doesn't. In fact socialism discourages productivity and the desire to get ahead.
Pensive,
As for getting ahead you have to make the conscious decision to do so and stick with it. Work 3 jobs if you have to. Eat ramon noodles for dinner and pb&j for lunch. Don't drink, don't smoke. The key is figuring out where you want to be 10yrs from now and spending all your energies working towards that goal. What do you want to do? Insurance has always been good to me. Get a p&c license and hit up different agencies. Of course you'll need to be clean cut and wear a suit and tie.
Edited, Jun 26th 2009 9:38am by publiusvarus
Quote:
Capitalism does not reward the most productive.
Well socialism certainly doesn't. In fact socialism discourages productivity and the desire to get ahead.
Pensive,
As for getting ahead you have to make the conscious decision to do so and stick with it. Work 3 jobs if you have to. Eat ramon noodles for dinner and pb&j for lunch. Don't drink, don't smoke. The key is figuring out where you want to be 10yrs from now and spending all your energies working towards that goal. What do you want to do? Insurance has always been good to me. Get a p&c license and hit up different agencies. Of course you'll need to be clean cut and wear a suit and tie.
Edited, Jun 26th 2009 9:38am by publiusvarus
This thread confuses me. I can't figure out who is arguing with whom, or even who is making points. Could someone post a leaderboard?
Ahkuraj wrote:
This thread confuses me. I can't figure out who is arguing with whom, or even who is making points. Could someone post a leaderboard?
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
Quote:
Well socialism certainly doesn't. In fact socialism discourages productivity and the desire to get ahead.
You're against socialised education, then, are you?
And state-funded infrastructure. Each person should be responsible for upkeep on the roads and pipelines they use.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
Ahkuraj wrote:
This thread confuses me. I can't figure out who is arguing with whom, or even who is making points. Could someone post a leaderboard?
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Samy,
What does that have to do with what motivates people?
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And state-funded infrastructure. Each person should be responsible for upkeep on the roads and pipelines they use.
What does that have to do with what motivates people?
We're talking about whether and how much the government should support the ability of people to get by and even thrive with a reasonable effort. Do try to keep up.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
publiusvarus wrote:
Quote:
And state-funded infrastructure. Each person should be responsible for upkeep on the roads and pipelines they use.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Samy,
Who decides what a reasonable effort is? Obviously you have no concept on how businesses operate. Let me give you a little clue if someone isn't productive doing what they're doing it's not the job of the govn to subsidize that activity because said person is making a "reasonable effort".
And what does this have to do with,
Quote:
We're talking about whether and how much the government should support the ability of people to get by and even thrive with a reasonable effort.
Who decides what a reasonable effort is? Obviously you have no concept on how businesses operate. Let me give you a little clue if someone isn't productive doing what they're doing it's not the job of the govn to subsidize that activity because said person is making a "reasonable effort".
And what does this have to do with,
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And state-funded infrastructure. Each person should be responsible for upkeep on the roads and pipelines they use.
Why, it's obvious if you think about it.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
infrastructure, not utility bills. Monthly bills cover cost of operation, the infrastructure was put in with tax money, like the roads. Although it could vary somewhat from place to place.
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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publiusvarus wrote:
Ah but we pay utilities bills because they provide said service.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Sometimes I have to step back and think about how lucky I am - both my parents were from labor class initially (mom from Detroit, dad from a farm) who joined the army to improve their respective lots in life. Both attended college in their late 30s and early 40s on the GI Bill, getting their degrees in early childhood education. All four of their kids, including my mentally ill sister, were able to attend college, and three of us graduated (one with an MBA.) In a mere three generations, the family went from blue collar to military to white collar. There was never any doubt I'd be going to college; it was mostly a question of whether I could afford to go to a big uni or if I'd be stuck locally. (Big uni won out, much to my dad's joy.)
And you know why my parents could send me to college far away from home, despite my father's heart problems and my whole family's mental illness issues? Because we had *gasp* inexpensive government paid healthcare through Champus and later through Tricare. You bet your bottom dollar that if my parents had not been military, going to college would have been a hell of a lot harder after my dad had 4-way heart bypass surgery when I was 16 years old. That sort of health problem can easily bankrupt a family without insurance.
And you know why my parents could send me to college far away from home, despite my father's heart problems and my whole family's mental illness issues? Because we had *gasp* inexpensive government paid healthcare through Champus and later through Tricare. You bet your bottom dollar that if my parents had not been military, going to college would have been a hell of a lot harder after my dad had 4-way heart bypass surgery when I was 16 years old. That sort of health problem can easily bankrupt a family without insurance.
catwho wrote:
That sort of health problem can easily bankrupt a family without insurance.
Sometimes, even with insurance...
catwho wrote:
Sometimes I have to step back and think about how lucky I am - both my parents were from labor class initially (mom from Detroit, dad from a farm) who joined the army to improve their respective lots in life. Both attended college in their late 30s and early 40s on the GI Bill, getting their degrees in early childhood education. All four of their kids, including my mentally ill sister, were able to attend college, and three of us graduated (one with an MBA.) In a mere three generations, the family went from blue collar to military to white collar. There was never any doubt I'd be going to college; it was mostly a question of whether I could afford to go to a big uni or if I'd be stuck locally. (Big uni won out, much to my dad's joy.)
And you know why my parents could send me to college far away from home, despite my father's heart problems and my whole family's mental illness issues? Because we had *gasp* inexpensive government paid healthcare through Champus and later through Tricare. You bet your bottom dollar that if my parents had not been military, going to college would have been a hell of a lot harder after my dad had 4-way heart bypass surgery when I was 16 years old. That sort of health problem can easily bankrupt a family without insurance.
And you know why my parents could send me to college far away from home, despite my father's heart problems and my whole family's mental illness issues? Because we had *gasp* inexpensive government paid healthcare through Champus and later through Tricare. You bet your bottom dollar that if my parents had not been military, going to college would have been a hell of a lot harder after my dad had 4-way heart bypass surgery when I was 16 years old. That sort of health problem can easily bankrupt a family without insurance.
Now even reservists can get Tricare for a small price (like $180 for a family of any size). I love it. While our daughters doctor might not accept it, the hospital does (which is far more expensive than her regular checkups). When I took her to the E.R. after bumping her head in the dressing room after swim class (I know, I'm a worry wart) the hospital tried to charge almost 2 grand. My portion was $6 for the xrays and like $60ish for the visit. (oh and no copay)
WHen I had United Health Care, my cost was $100 copay and $300 for the visit (She was about 4 weeks old and had a short bout with reflux. I panicked and took her to the E.R.) then I had another 200 bill from the Doctor!
I really do hope that we get a national health insurance program while keeping private insurance alive as an option.
I'll be using Tricare to deliver Tyler and whatever remainder I have to pay, will be far less than what United had charged me.
I wonder if everyone could get health care for $180 per month (for their family) or 40-50 per individual, would they pay for it or would they continue to choose to be uninsured?
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I would have assumed that Pensive was talking about working one minimum wage job. In fact, I would go as far as saying that's a pretty obvious assumption.
It's the number of hours really, the amount of jobs is important only if one job won't give you a lot of them, which they won't.
"Get a second (or third) job" is really easy to say, but it's difficult to find even one, especially two that will work around an already cemented schedule.
No it's not impossible. Yes it's even acceptable for a very, very short period of time (I dunno, maybe.) Is it preferable, good, or right? No Is it sustainable? No. Would it be really @#%^ing helpful if the government could alleviate even part of the expense burden so you could save that money instead of breaking even on min wage?
Yeah.
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Well, first, that wasn't @ you. I was replying to the default idiot who was saying it's just fine to work two or three minimum wage jobs because he had done it. Why you thought it was about you I have no idea.
Probably because the context was theoretically applicable and that I was defensive. My bad.
I can't stand the assertion that people that want but don't have a better life are lazy. It's entirely possible they're just bad at doing... stuff, you know? That doesn't imply anything about the ethics of the situation but it's nice for people to get the right criticism.
***
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What do you want to do?
Nothing that I want to do will make me lots of money, and I am okay with that. There's a nice happy middle ground between being even moderately wealthy and being dirt poor, and I don't mind occupying that space; I want a room with a bed and microwave, and a closet that has a toilet and shower, and that's it. I will never, ever want more than that.
Until I finish school though, I cannot really begin to figure out how to get that. Once I finish school? I dunno, maybe.
Edited, Jun 26th 2009 4:01pm by Pensive
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