Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Health Insurance QuestionFollow

#102 Jun 23 2009 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,781 posts
gbaji wrote:
Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:

Can you show that the rate of poverty has decreased as the rate of public assistance has increased? And when I speak of poverty, I'm not including the benefits granted by the programs themselves. We want to know whether the programs increased the number of people who need them, so we need to look at the whole number.

I can certainly show that the numbers of individuals and families receiving welfare benefits has decreased dramatically since TANF was enacted and also that welfare services have successfully helped the dependent to independence. Just check the statistics on the TANF page.


Really? Like this chart?
Well no, well kinda. TANF was a complete overhaul of the past AFDC in 97. So it doesn't reflect the current system at all really, except you can see the numbers decreasing at the end of the chart. They continue to decrease - significantly like by half, and then it levels off in the last few years and even rises a bit again toward the more recent. I imagine in response to the economy - think 2008 data is what's charted historically. Like I said, welfare in the form of aid to needy families is not your culprit in big spending - it's medicaid.


Quote:
The issue is not about just each individual. It's the effect on the whole population over time. For every one person who is helped out and able to get out of poverty because of a program like this, 1.x more people join the program. The effect over time is negative. We're creating more poverty than we're eliminating.
You're right, it's not about individuals. I realize it's much more fundamental than that. I believe that our government is the most unbiased, just, transparent way to insure adequate distribution of basic life necessities. You don't.

edit; insure ensure...bleh




Edited, Jun 24th 2009 5:18am by Elinda
____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#103 Jun 23 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
The problem with relying on private sources of charity is that they are insufficient, particularly during tough or threatening economic times, and they are poorly distributed.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#104 Jun 23 2009 at 8:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
What would our lives be like today if they had won the argument then? What if the principles of Marx had been adopted in the entire wester world back then? Think long and hard about what your life would be like now...
If Ray Bradbury is any guide, we'd all be ruled by Tyrannosaur ninjas.

Which would be pretty kick-***.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#105 Jun 23 2009 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
***
3,053 posts
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
What would our lives be like today if they had won the argument then? What if the principles of Marx had been adopted in the entire wester world back then? Think long and hard about what your life would be like now...
If Ray Bradbury is any guide, we'd all be ruled by Tyrannosaur ninjas.

Which would be pretty kick-***.


I always preferred the Heinlein Universe and his time line, where I knew when to expect the roads to stop rolling.

Plus Linear Marriage always sounded so neat even if done by people living in a penal colony.
____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#106 Jun 24 2009 at 6:25 AM Rating: Default
Elne,

Quote:
believe that our government is the most unbiased, just, transparent way to insure adequate distribution of basic life necessities


I believe our governments sole function is to provide a secure place for it's citizens to thrive and prosper free from domestic and foreign aggressors. It most certainly is not to have 49% of the population work to support the other 51%.


And back on nationalized health care. Anyone catch Obama's speech yesterday? Notice how can't answer any legitimate questions concerning his plan? For instance he simply wants to ignore why companies would keep their own plan instead of the govn one when the private insurers are going to be forced by the govn on what their plans have to offer. How about how private plans aren't going to be tax exempt while the govn plan will be. Pretty obvious that the govn is trying to run private insurers out of the health insurance business.

All so healthy responsible citizens can pay for Elne's visit to the emergency room.

#107 Jun 24 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,781 posts
publiusvarus wrote:
Elne,

Quote:
believe that our government is the most unbiased, just, transparent way to insure adequate distribution of basic life necessities


I believe our governments sole function is to provide a secure place for it's citizens to thrive and prosper free from domestic and foreign aggressors. It most certainly is not to have 49% of the population work to support the other 51%.


And back on nationalized health care. Anyone catch Obama's speech yesterday? Notice how can't answer any legitimate questions concerning his plan? For instance he simply wants to ignore why companies would keep their own plan instead of the govn one when the private insurers are going to be forced by the govn on what their plans have to offer. How about how private plans aren't going to be tax exempt while the govn plan will be. Pretty obvious that the govn is trying to run private insurers out of the health insurance business.

All so healthy responsible citizens can pay for Elne's visit to the emergency room.

That was my quote above, not EC's. You're not even trying. Banhammer time.
____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#108 Jun 24 2009 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
It's not that much of a problem if private insurers have to pull in their profit margins to compete. I've worked in medical billing before. They gouge.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#109 Jun 24 2009 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
publiusvarus wrote:
Anyone catch Obama's speech yesterday?
Yup.
Quote:
Notice how can't answer any legitimate questions concerning his plan?
Nope. Although, given that there isn't a set plan yet, I can see where definite answers would be hard to come by.
Quote:
For instance he simply wants to ignore why companies would keep their own plan instead of the govn one when the private insurers are going to be forced by the govn on what their plans have to offer.
Actually, he stated that if private insurers are legitimately offering the best possible deal for their clients, there should be no problem. If they're not able to compete with another entry into the marketplace, it raises the question of why their supposed "best possible deal" is so lacking.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#110 Jun 24 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Default
Joph,

Quote:
Actually, he stated that if private insurers are legitimately offering the best possible deal for their clients, there should be no problem. If they're not able to compete with another entry into the marketplace


And you know who gets to determine what the best possible deal is for their clients? That's right the federal govn. So all the federal govn has to do to run private insurers out of business is force standards that most insurance providers can't live up to. And they're receiving no tax benefits as opposed to the new govn "entry" into the market which are receiving tax breaks and completely funded by tax dollars. They're going to make it impossible for private insurers to compete with govn. Then again that's what the socialists want.



Edited, Jun 24th 2009 12:19pm by publiusvarus
#111 Jun 24 2009 at 8:19 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Quote:
So all the federal govn has to do to run private insurers out of business is force standards that most insurance providers can't live up to.


Sweet. Hasten the day.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#112 Jun 24 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
publiusvarus wrote:
And you know who gets to determine what the best possible deal is for their clients? That's right the federal govn.
Excellent. Can't do worse than the current "Sorry, we won't cover that medication your doctor says you need, go buy some aspirin" health insurers.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#113 Jun 24 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Default
Jophed,

Quote:
Excellent. Can't do worse than the current "Sorry, we won't cover that medication your doctor says you need, go buy some aspirin" health insurers.


Just wait until your doctor says you need chemo but your govn plan doesn't cover that so you're just going to have to die, like in the UK. Oh and go wait in line for 5 hrs to buy that aspirin.





Edited, Jun 24th 2009 12:32pm by publiusvarus
#114 Jun 24 2009 at 8:31 AM Rating: Default
Samy,

Quote:
Sweet. Hasten the day.


So you want the US healhcare system to be run like the US postal service as opposed to a privately owned Fed-Ex?

Remind me again how successful govn institutions are?




Edited, Jun 24th 2009 12:31pm by publiusvarus
#115 Jun 24 2009 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
That's okay. My health insurance plan probably won't cover it either.

They're great for allowing me to purchase generic amoxicillin though. Can you fight cancer with generic amoxicillin?
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#116 Jun 24 2009 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
publiusvarus wrote:
So you want the US healhcare system to be run like the US postal service as opposed to a privately owned Fed-Ex?
So you're arguing that private insurance can't compete with government institutions and then you cite the Post Office and Fed-Ex?

Good call! Smiley: laugh
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#117 Jun 24 2009 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
Great. Now I'm imagining people getting Chemo in back alleys with hollowed out rusty hangers as the IV needle.
#118 Jun 24 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Jophiel wrote:
publiusvarus wrote:
So you want the US healhcare system to be run like the US postal service as opposed to a privately owned Fed-Ex?
So you're arguing that private insurance can't compete with government institutions and then you cite the Post Office and Fed-Ex?

Good call! Smiley: laugh


Yeah, I wondered about that as well. I haven't had a problem with mail service. Smiley: dubious

Edited to add: that does bring up a good point, though. Imagine health insurance fraud being as serious an offense as mail fraud. Good deal.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 9:39am by Samira
____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#119 Jun 24 2009 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Speaking of public vs private, one fact that usually goes ignored in the "But public healthcare won't do this!" debate is that there is a private health insurance and medical care industry in the UK specifically for folks who want to throw down cash and skip the queues.

I'd be interested in Nobby's comments on that next time he's around.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#120 Jun 24 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
MarkosM (of DailyKos) just Twittered: "If I understand the GOP, government is bloated, wasteful, and inefficient. And private insurance companies can't compete with that."

I think it sums up the cognitive dissonance of the conservative stance on healthcare quite nicely.
#121 Jun 24 2009 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
Tracer Bullet
*****
12,636 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Speaking of public vs private, one fact that usually goes ignored in the "But public healthcare won't do this!" debate is that there is a private health insurance and medical care industry in the UK specifically for folks who want to throw down cash and skip the queues.

I'd be interested in Nobby's comments on that next time he's around.

Switzerland had powerful private insurance companies like the US does. The government adopted the Bismarck model of health care in 1994, insurance companies became non-profit, but were allowed to sell supplemental insurance for profit.

#122 Jun 24 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
*****
10,359 posts
Quote:
Excellent. Can't do worse than the current "Sorry, we won't cover that medication your doctor says you need, go buy some aspirin" health insurers.


For about a year past, I didn't have health insurance due to whatever @#%^ up at my mother's company (it got changed to something else now, so that didn't last forever.) I discovered that wallgreens has a really, really good generic insurance program. I've never payed more than a dollar per pill, and most of the time it's less. It's not exactly stitches and dressing for a lost limb, but it's better than a band-aid.

Once I stop school in a year I probably won't have insurance anymore, so it'll be back to wallgreens.

Quote:
Just wait until your doctor says you need chemo but your govn plan doesn't cover that your private insurance rejects coverage on a flimsy technicality or requires some untimely and wasteful verification and doctor assurance, so you're just going to have to die, like in the UK now.


Edited, Jun 24th 2009 4:55pm by Pensive
#123 Jun 24 2009 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
***
2,824 posts
Costco has an amazing generic prices. You don't need a membership, just tell them at the door you're going to the pharmacy.

Edited, Jun 24th 2009 4:20pm by baelnic
#124 Jun 24 2009 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
If I understand the GOP, government is bloated, wasteful, and inefficient. And private insurance companies can't compete with that."


Not when the government has a seemingly unlimited supply of money to throw at something.
#125 Jun 24 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Default
alexander,

Quote:
Not when the government has a seemingly unlimited supply of money to throw at something.


Don't forget they give tax breaks to govn entities that aren't given to private sector companies.

#126REDACTED, Posted: Jun 24 2009 at 3:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Pensive,
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 607 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (607)