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#177 Jun 15 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The poll specifically listed a set of names (which I didn't see anywhere) and asked people whether they viewed those people negatively or positively (or didn't know them at all).
No, it didn't. It asked who the caller thought of as the head of their party. The only names listed were those volunteered by the person taking the phone call.


Er? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong poll? It's in the quote in the first post:

The survey question wrote:

Next, we'd like to get your overall opinion of some people in the news. As I read each name, please say if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of these people -- or if you have never heard of them.

<results listing only party>


It sure looks like they read a list of Republicans, and a list of Democrats, and based on the responses to each individual name, they somehow derived a general opinion of the parties themselves. The methodology is pretty questionable, don't you agree?
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#178 Jun 15 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Responded in an edit above yours. I was thinking originally of the "Who's your party leader?" poll. As for this poll, there was no hidden list of names. The "people" were the two parties.
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#179 Jun 15 2009 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
Anna,

Quote:
I know they won't introduce and support amendments to specifically deny me rights which is worse than doing nothing.


Hmmm...well except for a right to life, 2nd amendment, freedom of speech (yes hate crime legislation is a violation of this), freedom of religion, equal protection under the law (affirmative action) and these are ones I can think of off the top of my head. But hey since the GOP won't recognize same sex marriage as a valid lifestyle choice they're obviously the enemy.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 5:05pm by publiusvarus
#180 Jun 15 2009 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Responded in an edit above yours. I was thinking originally of the "Who's your party leader?" poll. As for this poll, there was no hidden list of names. The "people" were the two parties.


The people are not the same as the party though. Lots of folks like Obama, but don't necessarily like or agree with the Democrat party itself. Lots of people don't like Bush and/or Cheney, but do like the Republican party.

If they wanted to know what people think about the parties themselves, why not just ask that question? Doubly so if the purpose was to assess the "brand" of each party as a whole (which is how the data was interpreted). You'd have to go out of your way to construct the question this way, so one has to ask why you'd go through that effort to generate a result that will be less accurate. If I were to put on my tin-foil hat, I'd have to assume that it's exactly because whomever was running the survey expected to get higher positives for Democrats and higher negatives for Republicans. Unless you can think of any other reason to do it this way...?
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#181 Jun 15 2009 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The people are not the same as the party though. Lots of folks like Obama, but don't necessarily like or agree with the Democrat party itself. Lots of people don't like Bush and/or Cheney, but do like the Republican party.

If they wanted to know what people think about the parties themselves, why not just ask that question? Doubly so if the purpose was to assess the "brand" of each party as a whole (which is how the data was interpreted). You'd have to go out of your way to construct the question this way, so one has to ask why you'd go through that effort to generate a result that will be less accurate.
You originally claimed that they asked some secret list of names and constructed their ratings from that. That claim was false. If you have to keep trying to find reasons to put on your tin-foil hat and say these numbers are false and/or misleading, go for it. Really, I have nothing much invested in proving these numbers accurate -- I'm happy as a clam the longer the GOP says there's nothing wrong with how they're running the show.

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 6:58pm by Jophiel
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#182 Jun 15 2009 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
You originally claimed that they asked some secret list of names and constructed their ratings from that. That claim was false.


Huh? I said this:

Quote:
The poll specifically listed a set of names (which I didn't see anywhere) and asked people whether they viewed those people negatively or positively (or didn't know them at all).


I suppose you could get "secret list" from my statement about not seeing the list anywhere, but I didn't mean that the people being asked didn't know them (the names), and I certainly didn't mean that they asked some irrelevant people's named either. You read that all by yourself.

I meant exactly what I said in my last post. That they didn't ask people what they thought of "the Republican Party", but were asked to respond to a list of names and that their responses were then correlated to the parties after the fact. Of course, I'm assuming they are figures associated to each party. Hence, my repeated comments about how someone can dislike Bush, but like the Republican party.

What did you think I meant by that? Context fails you apparently...


Quote:
If you have to keep trying to find reasons to put on your tin-foil hat and say these numbers are false and/or misleading, go for it. Really, I have nothing much invested in proving these numbers accurate -- I'm happy as a clam the longer the GOP says there's nothing wrong with how they're running the show.


All I was pointing out was that the conclusions printed didn't match the actual questions they asked. What the hell? It's not rocket science. Read the question. They say what they asked about each person (but don't include the specific names in the results), but then present the "results" of those questions by just listing the Republican or Democrat parties.


Given that the OP was specifically about interpreting this even farther to indicate some broader meaning about party brand and future effectiveness, I think it's pretty darn relevant to point out that the poll didn't actually ask or even mention the parties themselves...



Do you honestly think this is good polling methodology?

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 5:47pm by gbaji
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#183 Jun 15 2009 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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And just cause I'm curious. Do you know what names they read to the people answering the poll? If not, isn't it a "secret list" from our point of view?


I'm still just baffled as to what you're arguing? It seems like you're just playing word games on me now...
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#184 Jun 15 2009 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
That they didn't ask people what they thought of "the Republican Party", but were asked to respond to a list of names and that their responses were then correlated to the parties after the fact.
This is your assumption. You haven't backed it up aside from saying that it's true. There was apparently two polls Gallup did that day, with different set of questions. I've seen the full breakdown of one set but not the other (for instance, the A set doesn't include any of the "top of mind" questions/responses cited in the B set). That said, nothing from the B set suggests that they just called their "Cheney" responses the answer to how people felt about the GOP. You saying it's true doesn't count. From the looks of things, "The Republican Party" and "The Democratic Party" were the "People in the news" the B set says they'll ask about.
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And just cause I'm curious. Do you know what names they read to the people answering the poll?
I don't know that they read any. I don't see any evidence that they did. I don't really care to dig into it further either way.

When you come back, bring evidence, okay? Not more Gbajiguesses? Please? For me?

Edited, Jun 15th 2009 8:02pm by Jophiel
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#185 Jun 15 2009 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
That they didn't ask people what they thought of "the Republican Party", but were asked to respond to a list of names and that their responses were then correlated to the parties after the fact.
This is your assumption. You haven't backed it up aside from saying that it's true.


Huh? It's in the OP Joph. It's in the second link you just posted. Is your brain broken or something? The question states that they're going to read a list of names of people in the news (presumably people associated with each party, but I don't know the list myself). Immediately underneath that is the "results" of that question, which list responses by party ID.

I'm not making some crazy assumption. That is *exactly* what the article says.


Quote:
That said, nothing from the B set suggests that they just called their "Cheney" responses the answer to how people felt about the GOP.


I don't care what specific names were in the list Joph. Stop talking about the list. Geez!

The point is that regardless of which names were used, you can't correlate any list of names to a party. Yet, that's exactly what they apparently did.

They didn't say it was "Cheney". But it's very clear that based on the answers about how people feel about a list of people (whatever that was), they correlated the results to the parties. That's incorrect methodology. If they want to know how people feel about the GOP, they should freaking ask that question?


Why is this complicated? The question above the results in that article should have read: For each party, Republican and Democrat, please answer whether you view them "favorably", or "unfavorably".

See how easy that is? That's the results they presented, right? But that's not the question they asked.


That's why it's a "bait and switch". They asked one set of questions, but presents the answers as though they asked something entirely different. It's not about what names were on the list Joph, it's about the fact that they used a list of names in the first place.


Quote:
From the looks of things, "The Republican Party" and "The Democratic Party" were the "People in the news" the B set says they'll ask about.


What part of "As I read each name", in reference to "People in the News" make you think that they listed off "republican party" and "democrat party"?

Wow. You are seriously stretching here Joph. You don't actually buy that explanation do you?

Quote:
Quote:
And just cause I'm curious. Do you know what names they read to the people answering the poll?
I don't know that they read any. I don't see any evidence that they did.


OMFG!!!

What part of "As I read each name, please say if you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of these people -- or if you have never heard of them." isn't evidence that they read the poll takers a list of names and had them give a response for each one?

Are you saying that the poll question lied about the question(s) they asked? I'm really curious what you think happened here...


Where is the question asking whether people view each party favorably or unfavorably Joph? At the very least, we're dealing with a massive edit, aren't we? Do you have an explanation for this, cause I'd love to hear it...


You're killing me Joph. This is beyond hysterical watching you trying to backpedal out of this...
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#186 Jun 15 2009 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The point is that regardless of which names were used, you can't correlate any list of names to a party. Yet, that's exactly what they apparently did.
No, the point is that the "name" was "The Republican Party" & "The Democratic Party".
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Why is this complicated?
You tell me. You're the one trying to make it complicated.
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This is beyond hysterical watching you trying to backpedal out of this...
Wait, you're the one making up extra aspects of a poll which you can't back up aside from the patented Gbaji "CAUSE I SAID SO IT'S SO OBVIOUS!!!" and I'm backpedaling? Smiley: laugh

You know, it's funny, in every story I've read referencing this poll, you're the only person to demand that your version of events must be how it went down.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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