More Obama lies...ignored by the MSMFollow

Terrorists have legs 'n stuff. If N. Korea is the only seller of bombs and you want to bomb Brazil, you find a way to move your bomb from N. Korea to Brazil. Or just write it off as a pipe dream and wait for Argentina to develop nukes.

If Iran killed off the Palestinian people, damn right Iran would have some trouble. It would show a nuclear Iran willing to freely give explosives and use them against innocent Muslims. It would not be a victory to kill the Palestinian people, as they're the primary excuse used by the countries in the ME to show how bad Israel is.

I'm thinking you're missing the point of the whole thing. They don't really care about the land in question. It was largely unoccupied when the Zionists brought in agricultural equipment and began building cities and towns there. The Muslim nations don't really care about occupying the land. They just don't like the Israelis. The very existence of an Jewish state (in their own backyard even) undermines their own religious manifest destiny.


How many Palestinians die is also irrelevant. It's not, nor has it ever been about caring about the Palestinians. They've just been a convenient group of suckers they could stick between a rock and a hard place in order to build anti-Israeli sentiment among their own people.

They do want to bomb it. They just won't hit any sensitive areas, like Jerusalem.

Funny how many Palestinians families own olive orchards for generations, equals unoccupied land before the Zionists set their eyes on it, when there is no paper trail to a deed or title to prove it.

It's also hard to get to same orchard due to a fence suddenly going up to keep settlers safe.

History of both sides isn't pretty and filled with violence, so often.

The Zionist movement to resettle in the Holy Land started in the late 19th century. It gained some support in the 1920s, then stalled for awhile, then gained much more support post-WW2, eventually culminating in the establishment of a Jewish state. Looking only at Palestinian owned land from the 1950s and 60s is ignoring a much longer time frame. What happened is that as the Jewish settlers began building towns, formerly nomadic folks wandered into the area and some of them settle down there as well. It's quite arguable that had the Zionist resettlement movement not occurred, there would be very little in the way of cities in that area. Jerusalem would exist of course, but the rest of what is now Israel would mostly be small villages at best.


That's not to say that some displaced Palestinians don't have valid claims. But the larger point is that Iran (for example) really doesn't care about that. Certainly, the fact that lands which Palestinians hold claim to would be uninhabitable if a nuke or three was set off in the area would not be a dissuading factor in the decision. The surrounding Arab nations didn't really care about the Palestinians, nor do they really now. Their plight is as much (more really) the fault of their own nations actions as any by Israel, but by keeping them "stuck" in camps they've been able to hang the entire Palestinian displacement on the Jews, which has worked for them politically.

It was the nations of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt who essentially "stole" land from the Palestinians by breaking the land swap agreement with Israel.



Sure. But the point is that while we often tend to define it as an Israeli vs Palestine conflict, that's not really what's going on. The Palestinians are more correctly a group of victims stuck in the middle of a larger conflict between Israel and the surrounding Arab nations. The Palestinians got stuck without a chair when the music stopped, partly because of bad choices they made, and a whole lot because they got screwed over by the Arab nations in question.


The very idea that somehow the plight of the Palestinians is a concern is pretty silly. Doubly so if we're talking about Iran, which is not Palestinian, and isn't even Arab. They share nothing in common with the Palestinians except that by having them in such a poor state, it makes it easier for them to demonize a country they dislike. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all of that...

You're missing the point. Bombing Israel doesn't further Iran's practical goals. It doesn't even further their impractical ones, like the global Islamic revolution.

Hey. Psst. It's 2009, not 1100. Islam is not Christianity. Iran is not the head of the Islamic church(?) a la the Vatican, it's a country. I'm not certain, but I don't believe they feel Jerusalem is holy land to be reconquered.

Is religion a motivation? Probably. Is it the reason? Hell no. The past actions of an entirely different faith with completely different motives don't make today's situation purely religious.

EDIT: Hell, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure the first crusades were primarily moves to help allies of some form that the church latched onto as a religious war.

Edited, Jun 10th 2009 2:38am by CBD

NO THEY HAVE NOT. ISLAM HAS NOT EXISTED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. IT WAS CREATED IN THE 7TH CENTURY AD.

How can Muslims and Jews have been fighting over Israel for thousands of years when one party didn't even exist two thousand years ago?



That's your bottom line? That all Muslims hate all Jews? Well, yeah, that's simple. It's wrong, stupid, and racist, but I'll agree that it's simple.



I don't even know where to begin on how irrelevant this is. Islam is not Christianity. 21st century Iran is not 12th century Europe. The Ayatollah is not the Pope.

They do. Jews, Muslims and Christians all feel Jerusalem is holy land and want it. That's in part why they had trouble getting Israel.

It was a generalization on the "all muslims hate Jews" although most do. But pretty much every country near Israel (namely the Arabs, but others including Iran) do not like them. The hatred originated from Jacob and Esau. And Esau's line is what created the muslims. Which didn't start until the 6th-7th century. It was because of something that happened 3.8 thousand years ago that they have animosity towards Israel. Which is around 1800 BC. My post earlier wasn't worded correctly. Nit pick all you want, my point is that they do not like the Israelies.

If religion didn't rule them then what happened to the kings who really thought God is speaking in their ear? The Pope? All just trying to impose their will on the world? Religion played an essential part in the developing of the world as we know it. When I said Religion ruled the world it was a METAPHOR. It in many cases controlled the aristocracy, for example in Rome. I was using the crusades as an example to show what religion did and can still do. Mobilize a nation against an enemy regardless of reasoning except for religion said so.

You're ******* retarded. Arabs refuse to recognise Israel because they see it as a neocolonialist infringement on what used to be the territory of the Ottoman Empire, and a relic of Britain's previous heavy-handed management of the region. The Palestinians didn't even exist as a separate ethnic group until they had Israel to place themselves against. They considered themselves part of southern Syria. The entire problem is that the British allowed and encouraged mass Jewish immigration and land purchase into the area that is now Israel, which meant that Palestinian tenant farmers found their land literally bought out from under them. The civil strife continued without resolution until it expanded into a civil war, at which point the more organised, wealthier and more determined Jewish agencies declared that Israel was an independent state and evicted about half a million Palestinian Arabs into Jordan.

Add that to the consecutive humiliations of 1948 and 1967 respectively, where the Arab world as a whole was roundly trumped by a much smaller Israel, and you can see much more understandable reasons for anti-Israel sentiment than "Oh, all Muslims hate Jews. They've been doing it for thousands of years." It's purely an issue of land and land rights. Religion had nothing to do with it until all other avenues of drumming up public support for the Palestinian cause had been exhausted.

I'm not sure how you'd measure this, exactly. It's the third most holy city in Islam, after Mecca and Medina.

Does that mean it's "less" holy to Muslims than to Christians and Jews?