More Obama lies...ignored by the MSMFollow

I guess the bigger question to me is why Obama felt any need at all to make the observation in the first place. It doesn't really matter what the numbers are. The idea that when visiting a foreign nation with a Theocratic government you should point out the degree to which your own nation holds the same religious views is in opposition to the ideals of separation of church and state. What I find more interesting is how the different "sides" of politics views this. And I'm talking both sides here. If a US president had made a similar statement about the number of Christians in our country, he'd have been bashed by the Left and defended by the Right, but when saying a similar thing regarding Muslim's the bashing and defending is reversed.

Funny, huh?

It helps if you read the interview.

What's not a foreign concept to us Joph? What is the purpose of making the statement? Let's clear up who the intended audience is Joph. It's not that our relations with the heads of those states are bad. The target audience for that statement is presumably Muslim extremists (or those leaning that direction).

My concern is that he might actually think that this sort of statement will in any way make it harder for them to recruit members and conduct operations against us. My issue is that it's indicative of an appeasement approach, which historically does not work. Trying to get someone to not attack you by falling over yourself to show how friendly/similar you are to them doesn't work. Doubly so in this case. They'll see this as a sign that their tactics are working. Just a decade ago, no US president would have made a point of observing how many Muslims there are in the US before heading on a Middle East trip. That this one did can be seen as a sign of progress towards the dream of a Global Islamic Caliphate State.


What I find even more amusing is that someone as Liberal as Obama, who should be well versed in the methods of "progressive" movements, doesn't get that compromise and appeasement just facilitate the other sides progress. They're not going to stop at the US being friendly to Muslims. They're going to want some official recognition of the religion. And that wont be enough either. They'll want oppression of other religions. And that wont be enough either, they'll want control of government by their religion. Obama may think that the other side on this will be satisfied with the idea that there are lots of Muslims in the US, but they wont. No more than his "side" is satisfied with any concessions made by the Right on any political issue he's ever been involved in. The difference is that (presumably) he's on the receiving end of a process that wants to move society in a direction he doesn't agree with. He's the "conservative" in this relationship, and it's a position he's not familiar with I suspect...

Gbaji, as usual you're fucking retarded.

Well actually, I went to a Disability Awareness Course today, and I learnt that saying things like this is not quite appropriate. So I guess what I meant to say was "Gbaji, you have a serious mental disability, you fucking ******".

Apologies.



Clearly not. The intended audience is obviously moderate Muslims. Obama is not naive enough to think that he can win over the extremists with a single silly statistic.



Dude, go see a doctor, seriously.

Or an agent, there might be a place on the comedy circuit for you.


Edited, Jun 3rd 2009 10:46pm by RedPhoenixxx

To some degree, sure. But his statement didn't allay any fears they might have. He could have instead talked about the degree of diversity within our nation, indicating that we respect all faiths and cultures. But he didn't. He specifically said that the US could be considered "one of the largest Muslim Countries in the world". Not a nation with a large Muslim population, a "Muslim Country". There's an implication well beyond mere acceptance and respect.


If the moderate Muslim world only feels secure by the implication that the US is a Muslim Country, then we're in more trouble than we thought. The folks that would make happy are the more extreme factions, not the moderates. The moderates just want to know that we're not hateful of Muslims, not that we're a Muslim Country.

It could be a slip of the tongue, but it's a pretty bad one either way.




I don't know if he's lying, deluding himself, or just doesn't grasp how his words will actually be interpreted by those in the rest of the world. Regardless of who you think it's targeted at, that statement will be seen by Islamic extremists as a sign that their agenda is working. Whether it's reality or not isn't important. Perception matters. Obama may honestly be thinking he's mending fences with the Muslim world, but he's going to do as much damage as good if he continues on the way he's going.



I didn't say that. I said that folks like OBL would like to turn the whole world into a Caliphate, and that statements like the one made by Obama will be interpreted by people like that to mean that they are succeeding. I thought I was pretty clear that Obama doesn't intend this, but it's how his words will be interpreted.

I don't understand how any of this can entertain any of you any longer.

Of course I read it. What made you think I hadn't? I didn't see anything in that interview in which he clarified that his statement about how if you counted up all the Muslims in the US, it would be one of the larger Muslim Countries was directed at any specific target. The closest he comes in that question is "the Muslim World", which is vague at best.

He is specifically asked in the next question what message he wants to send to young Muslims who might be tempted to extremism, and his answer is very interesting. He mentions building instead of destroying, and then refers to the accomplishments of "centuries of Islamic Culture". Um... Not to be obvious, but that time period is exactly the Caliphate period which folks like OBL want to return to.

It's an odd message to follow the one about how the US could be considered "one of the largest Muslim Countries". I'm not suggesting that Obama intends to turn the US into a Caliphate state. I *am* suggesting that the language he's using seems tailor made to suggest to the extremists that if they build instead of destroy, maybe that dream of a Caliphate state will occur. He's not putting a message of opposition to that future out there, he's simply suggesting a change of tactics. Don't kill us and we'll help you build that future...


This is why I mentioned the whole Caliphate State objective in the first place. I assumed that since you must have read the interview you knew why that was relevant. Maybe you read it, but didn't really understand it?


I'm perfectly willing to concede that this is a ploy he's using. Tell them what they want to hear and get them to stop being violent. And it might even work. For a while. But ultimately, it'll just strengthen and swell the numbers of those who dream of such a future world. At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, it would be like if someone had suggested to Hitler that if he just waited for a bit longer and worked more diplomatically instead of starting his blitz, he might have a better chance at building his thousand year Reich. While that might forestall violence in the short term, I suspect that the long term consequences of such a thing would be worse.


You kinda want your enemies to be impulsive and short-sighted. Don't you?



The difference is that while Varus spins bizarre conspiracy theories, I simply believe that Liberals tend to cause such things as unintended consequences of their own best intentions. They don't want to cause an economic collapse. They just want to help poor people own homes. They don't want to create generational poverty and welfare dependence. They just want to help poor people. They don't want to raise taxes. They just have to do it to pay for all the good things they're doing. They don't want to create an authoritarian socialism. But too many industries collapsed as a result of their high taxes and regulations and had to be "saved" by government bail out. And I'm sure Obama doesn't want to encourage yet more young Muslims to dream of a future global Islamic Caliphate. He's just trying to convince them to build stuff instead of blowing stuff (and us!) up.


Liberals never intend the negative consequences of their policies. But that does not prevent them from happening anyway...

There's irony there somewhere... ;)


Did you, or did you not realize that the "centuries of Islamic Culture" statement was a reference to the Caliphate period in Arabia? This is not the first time he's used the "build not destroy" language either btw. That was not an off-the-cuff gaff type thing. It's a message phrase that he's been coached and prepped to drop into various interviews and statements in specific context. Those sorts of things are *not* accidental. I suspect the "US is a Muslim Country" bit was as well. Although they may drop that going forward if it brings too much outcry from home.

You can't tell me you've been watching/reading interviews of politicians for any length of time and never noticed that no matter what question they've been asked, they always manage to bring up some subject that's the "message" of the week and to inject specific, often repeated phrases into their response? Cause that's a common technique for getting "message" out.

The questions you should be asking are: "What is the message?" and "Who is the audience for that message?". If you never notice this or ask those kinds of questions when watching a politician speak, you will never "get" what they are actually saying. The bulk of the words are fluff. It's the key phrases that matter. Everything else is designed to create a framework in which to drop those key phrases. Figure out what they are, and you're halfway there to figuring out what the politician is really saying.

I suppose it's too much to hope for that they (read: the "Muslim world") decide to just close off their borders, ignore all of us infidels as hopeless cases, and quietly rot?

Yeah, the message is targeted to the moderate Muslim word that we have to learn how to live with. As everyone can see the interview if they want, on certain levels it's targeted to everyone. Your is hilarious. Let me give you a tip. If you decide what someone is saying before they say it, you'll often not "get" what they're saying either.

I find it amusing that you're criticizing the build not destroy message. Yeah, obviously it's not accidental. It's also a good message. Good thing you're not president, I can just see it. Hey Muslims? You know how you're all terrorists? Might as well stop trying to do anything productive and just start attacking us as we'll only kill you all eventually.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 8:37am by Xsarus

Because it's cheaper once in place, more efficient, and more environmentally friendly? Plus then they can export more of their non-nuclear fuels rather than having to use it themselves.

Edited, Jun 4th 2009 8:57am by AshOnMyTomatoes

Ash,



LMAO you're such an apologist. Oh and if nuclear technology is more environmentally friendly why aren't we using it here, considering we were decades ahead of Iran 20yrs ago.

Believe it or not i'm trying to help you understand.

At a rest step, at sunrise, I once saw a Muslim man doing his morning prayers to Mecca in the parking lot beside his car. Nobody bothered him, we just looked for a moment in idle curioisity and ignored him.

The beautiful thing about America is that he's allowed to do this and we're allowed not to care.