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#1 May 26 2009 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Parents have a huge capacity to influence their children. Is there a line between what can be taught and what can't? This example seems like a fairly obvious case, but where do you draw the line so that the government is dispensing justice but not trying to control people's beliefs. Of course looking into this story, this is an extreme case and there are apparently lots of problems with this particular family.

I think one possibility for a line would be if parents are obviously teaching their children that an illegal activity is both normal and right, something should be done.

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WINNIPEG – She showed up at school with neo-**** propaganda written all over her body, calmly described how to kill black people and spoke proudly about white people being superior to all other races.

Now the disturbing views of a seven-year-old girl are at the centre of a heated child custody case that began Monday in Winnipeg.
"Black people don't belong. What people don't understand is that black people should die," the little girl stated matter-of-factly in the March 2008 interview with a Child and Family Services worker.

Although disturbing, the Free Press is reporting on some of the girl's comments because they form a central part of the legal battle. CFS is seeking a permanent order of guardianship for the girl and her three-year-old brother, saying the racist views of their alleged white supremacist parents have clearly been passed down to the children and amount to emotional abuse. The girl's stepfather is fighting back, claiming his rights to freedom of expression and religion have been violated. The mother has moved out of province, has not retained a lawyer and is not participating in the trial.

"They have been taught to hate absolutely everyone in the world who's not white," a CFS social worker wrote in a report tendered in court Monday. "She didn't see her family views as anything other than normal."

CFS got involved last year after the girl showed up at her Winnipeg elementary school with a massive swastika on her arm and other slogans on her legs, including references to Adolf Hitler and the slogan "we must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." Photos of the markings were shown in court.

"The meaning of that is that black people don't belong," the girl later explained to the social worker. The woman told court Monday she was stunned by what transpired during an hour-long interview with the girl, who frequently used the N-word to describe blacks and said she believes strongly in what her parents taught her. The girl also gave a graphic description of how to kill a black person, telling the social worker about using a spiked ball attached to a chain and then "whipping them until they die." The worker asked the girl if those ideas "scared her."

"No, black people just need to die. That's not scary. This is a white man's world," she replied.

The girl also made racist remarks about the World Trade Center attacks, described watching "skinhead" videos and websites with her parents and watching them regularly smoke marijuana. She said her parents even made a poster of her and her brother with the slogan "Missing -- A Future for White Children," which they plastered around Winnipeg.

"White kids are not safe because of (racist term for blacks)," she told the social worker.

The girl's stepfather -- who is currently living apart from the girl's mother -- has denied any wrongdoing and recently filed an affidavit supporting his position. The girl's mother repeatedly demanded the return of her children in a series of phone calls to CFS last year, noting the children had not been physically harmed in any way. Police had also investigated but laid no charges.

"You have no right to steal my children because of religious beliefs," she said, according to the social worker. She admitted drawing on her daughter to "**** them off" at the school and said her children "are proud to be white."

"(The mother) made it clear that multiculturalism was the poison of society and she was proud to be able to influence her daughter that way," the CFS employee told court. "My concerns were the emotional impact this was having on a seven-year-old child, that she would describe in detail how to kill a black person. It was concerning that someone would mark their child up like a billboard and send them to school."

The lawyer for CFS told court Monday this case has nothing to do with infringing free speech or expression. He said it is about "long-standing family dysfunction" -- including drug and alcohol abuse, mental health issues, neglect and criminal activity and associations -- which will prove the children are at risk if returned to their parents. The couple allegedly gave out alcohol to some of the girl's schoolmates as "rewards" for helping with babysitting, court was told.

CFS is also relying on a doctor's report that both parents "are not in a position to offer either of their children care at this time," court was told. This case has generated national and international publicity because of the unique issues involved. The court hearing is expected to address the extent to which the beliefs as expressed by the parents are legally protected and whether educating their children in these beliefs entitled CFS to apprehend the children. The trial will run until Friday, then be adjourned until June 23 for another week of testimony.



Edited, May 26th 2009 10:38am by Xsarus
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#2 May 26 2009 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xsaurus wrote:
I think one possibility for a line would be if parents are obviously teaching their children that an illegal activity is both normal and right, something should be done.


What if it is normal and right, but also illegal?

Teaching your kids is, or should be, more than just teaching them to mindlessly obey.

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#3 May 26 2009 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
What reason do Canadians have to be racist? The whole population disappears every early autumnwinter as soon as the snow starts to fall.
#4 May 26 2009 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah but they have the Quebecois and the Inuit to deal with.
#5 May 26 2009 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
Teaching your kids is, or should be, more than just teaching them to mindlessly obey.


Agreed. It's not teaching if the child/children/etc. have no logical or interactive experience to base it on. A child (or any person, for that matter) would in typical settings, be subjected to multicultural settings and would (eventually) come to their own conclusions on how they feel about people. In younger years, without outside influence, a child will not make a distinction between the person and their cultural background. It doesn't matter that the kid he/she does/doesn't like is black/white/hispanic. They do/don't like them because of something they did/didn't do. Pulled hair, stole a toy, didn't share, etc.

It's brainwashing. And regardless of the focus "used" to progress the case (ie. dysfunction & substance abuse), the children be taken from their custody, the parents should be punished, and they should be forced to have their reproductive organs halted to avoid further procreation.

Edit: Reordered the last sentence...it sounded like I was talking about the kids the other way...

Edited, May 26th 2009 12:11pm by Ryneguy
#6 May 26 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Black people don't belong. What people don't understand is that black people should die


Kids say the darndest things.
#7 May 26 2009 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's brainwashing. And regardless of the focus "used" to progress the case (ie. dysfunction & substance abuse), the children be taken from their custody, the parents should be punished, and they should be forced to have their reproductive organs halted to avoid further procreation.

Edit: Reordered the last sentence...it sounded like I was talking about the kids the other way...


I'm still not quite clear on what you're saying here.

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#8 May 26 2009 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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Why not just gas the whole family? Stop this inferior genetic line before it infects future humans.
#9 May 26 2009 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Xsaurus wrote:
I think one possibility for a line would be if parents are obviously teaching their children that an illegal activity is both normal and right, something should be done.


What if it is normal and right, but also illegal?

Teaching your kids is, or should be, more than just teaching them to mindlessly obey.
Yeah, this is a very good point and why it's something of a hard issue. I would say though, that if a law is wrong, then people need to work to change said law.
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#10 May 26 2009 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
I'm still not quite clear on what you're saying here.


In general, the parents scream "We didn't hurt them, I demand you give them back!" and the CFS says "But you have a history of drug/alcohol/whatever abuse...the kids aren't safe with you".

Or, if you're wondering what my edit meant, I the order I said things sounded like I was suggesting we rob the "children" of their reproductive abilities. Which...may not be such a bad idea at this point anyways.
#11 May 26 2009 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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The children should be removed because of the substance abuse. As for teaching racism... well, I think there might be some law against purposefully inciting violence, which I think teaching an impressionable child how to kill a black person with a flail might be. No idea though.

I don't know if just teaching racism is grounds for removal, though. Horrible, sure, but it's ultimately up to the parents. If the parents are unfit for other reasons, like in this case, then sure. But not sure if teaching non-violent racism would be grounds for it.
#12 May 26 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ryneguy wrote:
Samira wrote:
I'm still not quite clear on what you're saying here.


In general, the parents scream "We didn't hurt them, I demand you give them back!" and the CFS says "But you have a history of drug/alcohol/whatever abuse...the kids aren't safe with you".



Well, yeah, other issues obfuscate the point a bit. I have no qualms with the parents being investigated for possible crimes.

I just have a problem with knee-jerk reactions, such as declaring parents unfit to raise their kids because they're teaching the kids values that you or I find repugnant.

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#13 May 26 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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I personally don't think that the government should be involved in trying to control societal norms, so the less it interferes in these types of situations the better. I can easily picture myself in a country where it's illegal to be a Christian and purposefully teaching my kids about it anyway.

Obviously as Samira pointed out, the other issues in this case make it less ideal. There was a case a few years ago where some CFS worker decided to target a group of families that spanked their children. The families were by all accounts very happy and stable, and I think got their children back via the courts, but it was a traumatizing time for them. A bunch of them fled to the states when the first family was targeted.
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#14 May 26 2009 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
It's not a matter of repugnant, it's a matter of illegal. Teaching your kids it's okay to kill anyone for any reason is grounds for custody removal, since murder of any sort is against the law.

I hate to say it, but if it ended with "White people are superior so we should never interact with people of any other skin color" and the whole Neo-**** bit, then there would be little legal justification for taking the kids away. It's still taught like that in some parts of the south (hell, my fiance's family thinks that way privately, and he wisely rebelled against it at an early age and went into urban education studies because of it.)

The line is crossed when the parents advocate physical injury or violence, which is the case in this instance.

Edited, May 26th 2009 12:39pm by catwho
#15 May 26 2009 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
It's not a matter of repugnant, it's a matter of illegal. Teaching your kids it's okay to kill anyone for any reason is grounds for custody removal, since murder of any sort is against the law.


No, it really isn't. Conspiring to commit a specific crime, or suborning minor children to commit a crime, would be.

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#16 May 26 2009 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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catwho the Pest wrote:
It's not a matter of repugnant, it's a matter of illegal. Teaching your kids it's okay to kill anyone for any reason is grounds for custody removal, since murder of any sort is against the law.

I hate to say it, but if it ended with "White people are superior so we should never interact with people of any other skin color" and the whole Neo-**** bit, then there would be little legal justification for taking the kids away. It's still taught like that in some parts of the south (hell, my fiance's family thinks that way privately, and he wisely rebelled against it at an early age and went into urban education studies because of it.)

The line is crossed when the parents advocate physical injury or violence, which is the case in this instance.

Edited, May 26th 2009 12:39pm by catwho
The article doesn't say that the girl was threatening to kill anyone only stating that black people don't belong and should die. What if the girl had said Al-Qaeda was evil and should die - Is that illegal too?
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#17 May 26 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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It's not a matter of repugnant, it's a matter of illegal. Teaching your kids it's okay to kill anyone for any reason is grounds for custody removal, since murder of any sort is against the law.


You really haven't thought this through.
#18 May 26 2009 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
If she can describe graphic ways of killing other human beings, just because they are different, then yes, I think it counts as an illegal hate crime. The likelihood of her encountering Al Quaeda is significantly lower than her ever encountering a black person, but the premise is the same. Teaching children that the "other" needs to die just because is denying the "other" basic human rights.

So what, we should wait until she's 15 and has committed murder before we do anything about it?
#19 May 26 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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catwho the Pest wrote:
If she can describe graphic ways of killing other human beings, just because they are different, then yes, I think it counts as an illegal hate crime. The likelihood of her encountering Al Quaeda is significantly lower than her ever encountering a black person, but the premise is the same. Teaching children that the "other" needs to die just because is denying the "other" basic human rights.

So what, we should wait until she's 15 and has committed murder before we do anything about it?
No clearly we should lock up everyone who has ever said anything mean about another people.
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#20 May 26 2009 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho the Pest wrote:
If she can describe graphic ways of killing other human beings, just because they are different, then yes, I think it counts as an illegal hate crime. The likelihood of her encountering Al Quaeda is significantly lower than her ever encountering a black person, but the premise is the same. Teaching children that the "other" needs to die just because is denying the "other" basic human rights.

So what, we should wait until she's 15 and has committed murder before we do anything about it?


Yes. We wait until a CRIME has been committed before we prosecute.

In France you'd probably be right, actually. Here, and as far as I know in Canada, speech is still protected.

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#21 May 26 2009 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Also the kids do have to go to school, so hopefully she'd be taught to examine her beliefs at some point, or at least be exposed to the idea. Of course in this case it's a moot point, but generally.

Edited, May 26th 2009 12:10pm by Xsarus
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#22 May 26 2009 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
I just have a problem with knee-jerk reactions, such as declaring parents unfit to raise their kids because they're teaching the kids values that you or I find repugnant.


It's knee-jerk when it's questionable. When the parents are drawing swastika's and writing racial slurs on their childrens skin before sending them off skipping to class and declaring the right way to kill a black is to use a fucking midevil flail of all things, it's not questionable.

Few years down the road, and that's like sending your kids off to the gas chamber. Obligatory IMHO tag and all that junk. It's not like they found a book on Hitler in their care bear backpacks...they're walking billboards of their parents bigotry, and they agree with it.
#23 May 26 2009 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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The school can and probably does have some kind of dress code to be enforced. Kinda like you can't wear t-shirts with beer or nekkid girls on them, might include magic marker swastikas.

There could be a case made of mental abuse and to therefore have the child taken out of custody of the abuser (the mother), but there is nothing really illegal going on here.
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#24 May 26 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xsaurus wrote:
It's not like they found a book on Hitler in their care bear backpacks...they're walking billboards of their parents bigotry, and they agree with it.


And you're horrified and repulsed and indignant. That's fine; but it's not evidence of a crime.

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#25 May 26 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
Xsaurus wrote:
It's not like they found a book on Hitler in their care bear backpacks...they're walking billboards of their parents bigotry, and they agree with it.


Meh, the kid is seven. She's parroting what her parents tell her to say. I don't know if she agrees with it, because I don't know if she's really had the chance to examine what they're saying and understand it.
#26 May 26 2009 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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What I'm not getting here is how the parents can claim persecution on religious grounds. Exactly what "religion" are they a part of?
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