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#102 May 20 2009 at 12:12 PM Rating: Default
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I choose not to procreate.

I suppose that I am really of no use and should off myself?


I said "in nature."

Quote:
A true naturalist would note that there's no "reason" any species is here -- we're here because chains of quasi-random events outside our control put us here. By that measure, a non-breeding human's existance has as much natural validity as that of a human with sixteen kids, a zebra's, a wharf rat's, a burr oak tree's or a lichen's.


I don't claim to be a naturalist. And I will admit, "reason" was a poorly chosen word. Is motivation better?

I don't understand the need to jump on me about this. I'm arguing for not making judgment calls about trans-people etc.

Edited, May 20th 2009 8:13pm by BoondockSaint
#103 May 20 2009 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Professor BoondockSaint wrote:
I don't understand the need to jump on me about this. I'm arguing for not making judgment calls about trans-people etc.

Edited, May 20th 2009 8:13pm by BoondockSaint


Perhaps because, while making that argument, you're judging them as being unneccessary "in nature."
#104 May 20 2009 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not jumping on you, I'm just disagreeing. If you want people to just read you and stay quiet about it, then start a blog and turn off the comments.

Obviously the primary motivation of many people isn't to have children as evidenced by the large number of people who make that decision. Given that there's absolutely no shortage of humans on the planet and that we have the capacity to assist the human species in ways beyond creating more humans, it would be false to state that those humans are failing at any purpose.

In fact, the only way in which you could say that people are failing to meet their obligations is to impose such obligations upon them artifically, either via society or perhaps an invisible guy in the sky.

Edited, May 20th 2009 3:18pm by Jophiel
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#105 May 20 2009 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Professor BoondockSaint wrote:
I don't understand the need to jump on me about this. I'm arguing for not making judgment calls about trans-people etc.

Edited, May 20th 2009 8:13pm by BoondockSaint


Perhaps because, while making that argument, you're judging them as being unneccessary "in nature."


Well let's say you're in the movie Deep Impact, and you have to choose people to go into your tiny underground safehaven until its safe to come out. Are you going to take the transgendered former female with the non-working sperm factories? Survival is the main motivation for a species. Granted, we are beyond that point at the moment. As Jophiel said there are enough people on the earth. I'm talking super basic human existence, I'm not calling for people who don't procreate to off themselves.

Quote:
I'm not jumping on you, I'm just disagreeing. If you want people to just read you and stay quiet about it, then start a blog and turn off the comments.

Obviously the primary motivation of many people isn't to have children as evidenced by the large number of people who make that decision. Given that there's absolutely no shortage of humans on the planet and that we have the capacity to assist the human species in ways beyond creating more humans, it would be false to state that those humans are failing at any purpose.

In fact, the only way in which you could say that people are failing to meet their obligations is to impose such obligations upon them artifically, either via society or perhaps an invisible guy in the sky.


I should have directed the "jumping on" at that other bandwagoner whatever their name is who wanted to talk about feet. I'm not talking about the motivation of individuals. It's obvious that humankind is in a position to make choices like these. Once again, I'm talking about basic human existence. One does not have an "obligation" to procreate, but if one does not procreate their pool of genes ceases to exist. Is that not how it occurs in nature? It's an evolutionary dead end. They are failing at carrying on their pool of genes. Much like we've created the invisible man, we've created use for everyone. Each of us is special and we all get a trophy, gen-y'ers.
#106 May 20 2009 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Professor BoondockSaint wrote:
Well let's say you're in the movie Deep Impact, and you have to choose people to go into your tiny underground safehaven until its safe to come out. Are you going to take the transgendered former female with the non-working sperm factories? Survival is the main motivation for a species. Granted, we are beyond that point at the moment. As Jophiel said there are enough people on the earth. I'm talking super basic human existence, I'm not calling for people who don't procreate to off themselves.


Wow. That's probably the stupidest grounds for an argument I've ever heard.

#107 May 20 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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He reminds me of that argument where BD referred to gays as "unnatural".

Since when did being transgendered mean that your **** doesn't work?!?
#108 May 20 2009 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, nothing like a fictitious edge case to make your point.

"See, you're in a life boat and you have to choose eleven other people to start a new society with you...."

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#109 May 20 2009 at 12:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Yeah, nothing like a fictitious edge case to make your point.

"See, you're in a life boat and you have to choose eleven other people to start a new society with you...."
I call eleven female super-genius supermodels!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#110 May 20 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Yeah, nothing like a fictitious edge case to make your point.

"See, you're in a life boat and you have to choose eleven other people to start a new society with you...."



I want to take the schizophrenic so we can have group sex without the group and I'll take the person with MPD, it'll be like ******** a different person everytime..

Edited, May 20th 2009 1:51pm by niobia
#111 May 20 2009 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Yeah, nothing like a fictitious edge case to make your point.

"See, you're in a life boat and you have to choose eleven other people to start a new society with you...."



Is it just me that would rather sink society and die having a riot with interesting people than start a new society with fertile fundies?
#112 May 20 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Odd how Samira is getting rated down and varus has a new scholar account...


Oh, and I have no opinion about the topic. Just noticing ratings. That's what's *really* important.
#113 May 20 2009 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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niobia wrote:
He reminds me of that argument where BD referred to gays as "unnatural".

Since when did being transgendered mean that your **** doesn't work?!?


Wait, which one is the one where they chop off stuff and replace it? Is that transgender or transsexual?
#114 May 20 2009 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Well let's say you're in the movie Deep Impact, and you have to choose people to go into your tiny underground safehaven until its safe to come out. Are you going to take the transgendered former female with the non-working sperm factories? Survival is the main motivation for a species. Granted, we are beyond that point at the moment. As Jophiel said there are enough people on the earth. I'm talking super basic human existence, I'm not calling for people who don't procreate to off themselves.


You're doing that whole "making an argument technically contains a small grain of truth, one which is misapplied horribly to make a loaded observation which to someone with the mental accuity of a musk rat would, perhaps, appear innocuous". Pretty low, man. Pretty low.

Quote:
Odd how Samira is getting rated down


I'd say I'm going to hunt down the perps, skin them alive and use their hides to bind a series of books on ethics, but I'm not looking for a lawsuit here. To make it clear, if anyone happens to lose their dermis, it is not my doing. The flensing knife found at the scene was not used by me to orchestrate their demise.

Edited, May 20th 2009 9:03pm by Kavekk

Edited, May 20th 2009 9:04pm by Kavekk
#115 May 20 2009 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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publiusvarus wrote:
Elne,

Quote:
I know I have no problem with my daughters deciding what their sexual preference were as teens.


So what you're saying is sexual orientation is a choice, gotcha.



No I'm saying I'm glad they felt free to figure out they were BI as teens, instead of still being a repressed gay male who thinks being gay is unnatural.
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In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#116 May 20 2009 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor BoondockSaint wrote:
niobia wrote:
He reminds me of that argument where BD referred to gays as "unnatural".

Since when did being transgendered mean that your **** doesn't work?!?


Wait, which one is the one where they chop off stuff and replace it? Is that transgender or transsexual?


you are asking about sexual reassignment surgery?


Quote:
Genital surgery is often referred to as "sex reassignment surgery", genital reconstructive surgery, or gender reassignment surgery. Differences in terminology can depend on the preference of the surgeon or recipient, or the nature of the surgery involved. Some consider “sex change surgery” to be disrespectful.


Transsexualism is often included within the broader term transgender, which is generally considered an umbrella term for people who do not conform to typical accepted gender roles, for example cross-dressers, drag queens, and people who identify as genderqueer. Some transsexuals object to this inclusion.


Transsexual people often feel that gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. Transsexual men and women are of various sexual orientations just as non-transsexual (some times referred to as Cisgender or Cissexual) people are, and they will almost always use terms for their sexual orientation that relate to the sex with which they identify. For example, someone born biologically male who identifies as a woman, and who is attracted solely to men, will commonly identify as heterosexual. Likewise, someone who was born biologically female, identifies as a man, and prefers male partners, will identify as gay, not heterosexual.


#117 May 20 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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niobia wrote:
Professor BoondockSaint wrote:
niobia wrote:
He reminds me of that argument where BD referred to gays as "unnatural".

Since when did being transgendered mean that your **** doesn't work?!?


Wait, which one is the one where they chop off stuff and replace it? Is that transgender or transsexual?


you are asking about sexual reassignment surgery?


Quote:
Genital surgery is often referred to as "sex reassignment surgery", genital reconstructive surgery, or gender reassignment surgery. Differences in terminology can depend on the preference of the surgeon or recipient, or the nature of the surgery involved. Some consider “sex change surgery” to be disrespectful.


Transsexualism is often included within the broader term transgender, which is generally considered an umbrella term for people who do not conform to typical accepted gender roles, for example cross-dressers, drag queens, and people who identify as genderqueer. Some transsexuals object to this inclusion.


Transsexual people often feel that gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. Transsexual men and women are of various sexual orientations just as non-transsexual (some times referred to as Cisgender or Cissexual) people are, and they will almost always use terms for their sexual orientation that relate to the sex with which they identify. For example, someone born biologically male who identifies as a woman, and who is attracted solely to men, will commonly identify as heterosexual. Likewise, someone who was born biologically female, identifies as a man, and prefers male partners, will identify as gay, not heterosexual.




Hmmm I have my terminology mixed up. Welp, nevermind. That was entertaining. Back to work.

Edited, May 20th 2009 9:07pm by BoondockSaint
#118 May 20 2009 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Professor BoondockSaint wrote:
niobia wrote:
He reminds me of that argument where BD referred to gays as "unnatural".

Since when did being transgendered mean that your **** doesn't work?!?


Wait, which one is the one where they chop off stuff and replace it? Is that transgender or transsexual?


Let me make this as simple as I can.

Transsexual = someone who gender doesn't agreed with their body's sexual organ. Pre-op is a Transsexual who hasn't had an operation

Transvestite = someone who dresses up in the opposite sex's cloths as it turn them on.

Cross-dessing = someone who wears clothing of opposite gender.

Drag Queens and Kings = people who preforms as the opposite sex and may be either a transsexual or transvestite. See also Faux Kings and Queens

Intersexuality a person born with both male and female sexual organs. Often given a sex change operation as infants to reflex the gender parents want and later has to be corrected to gender they identified as.

Transgender = A general term for anyone who identifies as a member of one of the groups mention above.
____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#119 May 20 2009 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress ElneClare wrote:
Professor BoondockSaint wrote:
niobia wrote:
He reminds me of that argument where BD referred to gays as "unnatural".

Since when did being transgendered mean that your **** doesn't work?!?


Wait, which one is the one where they chop off stuff and replace it? Is that transgender or transsexual?


Let me make this as simple as I can.

Transsexual = someone who gender doesn't agreed with their body's sexual organ. Pre-op is a Transsexual who hasn't had an operation

Transvestite = someone who dresses up in the opposite sex's cloths as it turn them on.

Cross-dessing = someone who wears clothing of opposite gender.

Drag Queens and Kings = people who preforms as the opposite sex and may be either a transsexual or transvestite. See also Faux Kings and Queens

Intersexuality a person born with both male and female sexual organs. Often given a sex change operation as infants to reflex the gender parents want and later has to be corrected to gender they identified as.

Transgender = A general term for anyone who identifies as a member of one of the groups mention above.


Hi Elne, I was being facetious, but thanks for putting that together for me. I read through quite a bit of it though, and it was pretty interesting. I'm sorry, I was just trolling.
#120 May 20 2009 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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To a large extent, the implication that someone is born with a sexual orientation but not any gender identity, doesn't make all that much sense since it means that someone is relating to the world in a gendered way but never applying it to a sense of self.


Really? This is really the position that you want to take, that sexual orientation is dependent on gender identity?


I think people forget that there is no road map for this and largely it is because only now in our dominant culture, the taboo around gender variance is lessening and people can view their child's wishes or behavior or anxiety around being cisgendered as something other than purely pathological. These parents are doing the best they can in a situation where there are few models, about how to act or role models, who can help them understand where there child is coming from.

I think we forget that many, many people have had to be in a major closet b/c we've been been so simplistic and puritanical around the gender binary. Having gender variations, regardless of what that means, needs to be addressed in an honest way--and I think anyone who knows anything about the transcommunities, knows it means a variety of different things on a continuum and in the future it'll include more and more people as we get more sophisticated in the way we think about gender.

There is a tendency to slough it off and act like it doesn't matter. It might sound more understanding to say, "Who cares?" That's a stance that someone with a lot of privilege or a lot of denial tends to take. Kids need support understanding and expressing their identities in the face of an overwhelming cultural mandate that tells them that unless they are cisgendered, they are damaged goods.


No, the stance someone with a lot of privilege takes is pity. Then they frequently mistake it for compassion.


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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#121 May 20 2009 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Professor BoondockSaint wrote:

Hi Elne, I was being facetious, but thanks for putting that together for me. I read through quite a bit of it though, and it was pretty interesting. I'm sorry, I was just trolling.


Yes we reconize the trolling, but I used it to create another Educational Service Post.

Think of me as being like all the education films Disney made in the 50's and 60's or better yet Reefer Madness.
____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#122 May 20 2009 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Testing new sig as it's just 2 days away before old one is over a year out of date.
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In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#123 May 20 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well damn. Smash wants me to get laid and anna doesn't seem to either want to or be able to express the answer Smiley: frown

Nio, you weren't talking to me specifically but I'd like to say: it's not that I'm conflating gender with sex. I think that gender is a specious and ultimately harmful distinction to make for a person... but I still understand what it's supposed to mean.

What I don't get is what the hell it's supposed to communicate to me when a sexually defined male says that he's a female inside.

***

Quote:
Once again, I'm talking about basic human existence. One does not have an "obligation" to procreate, but if one does not procreate their pool of genes ceases to exist. Is that not how it occurs in nature? It's an evolutionary dead end. They are failing at carrying on their pool of genes.


Who ******* cares? It's neither my purpose nor my "motivation" to carry on my gene pool.

Edited, May 20th 2009 6:31pm by Pensive
#124 May 20 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress ElneClare wrote:
Professor BoondockSaint wrote:

Hi Elne, I was being facetious, but thanks for putting that together for me. I read through quite a bit of it though, and it was pretty interesting. I'm sorry, I was just trolling.


Yes we reconize the trolling, but I used it to create another Educational Service Post.

Think of me as being like all the education films Disney made in the 50's and 60's or better yet Reefer Madness.


Ok! Good, I felt bad cuzz of this:

http://www.zam.com/forum.html?forum=4;mid=1241651599180624870;page=1;howmany=50#m1241656461291972071
#125 May 20 2009 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Really? This is really the position that you want to take, that sexual orientation is dependent on gender identity?


No, you completely didn't get the point. I'm guessing as a straight guy, you never bother or are unable to make the connection.

It makes no sense to act as if there is a biological basis to being sexually attracted to a certain gender but then at the same time maintain that gender itself is only a social construction.



Edited, May 20th 2009 8:03pm by Annabella
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Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#126 May 20 2009 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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No, you completely didn't get the point. I'm guessing as a straight guy, you never bother or are unable to make the connection.

It makes no sense to act as if there is a biological basis to being sexually attracted to a certain gender but then at the same time maintain that gender itself is only a social construction.


It not only makes sense, it's supported by the best evidence we currently have. Although, as an emotionally crippled bi-sexual desperate for anyone's love or more importantly that exquisite feeling of being *needed*, I can't imagine the evidence matters much.

Not that I don't find your argument that a "straight guy" couldn't possibly understand compelling. Just think of all the time you've saved thinking of a thesis subject.



____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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