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The War in Iraq: Was it partly a Holy Crusade?Follow

#1 May 17 2009 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Before I get started & the Smiley: tinfoilhat's start getting put on, let me say that I do NOT believe that the "real" reason we went into Iraq was solely because W & his crew truly believed they were Crusaders.

But, this article shows evidence that it very well may have been part of it or perhaps became part of it when things stopped being "easy" & US Soldiers started dying. Or could this have just been Rumsfeld's way of duping Bush into getting what he wanted?

And if so, do we blame Rumsfeld for perpetuating it or Bush for falling for it?

You decide.

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GQ wrote:
These cover sheets were the brainchild of Major General Glen Shaffer, a director for intelligence serving both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the secretary of defense. In the days before the Iraq war, Shaffer’s staff had created humorous covers in an attempt to alleviate the stress of preparing for battle. Then, as the body counting began, Shaffer, a Christian, deemed the biblical passages more suitable. Several others in the Pentagon disagreed. At least one Muslim analyst in the building had been greatly offended; others privately worried that if these covers were leaked during a war conducted in an Islamic nation, the fallout—as one Pentagon staffer would later say—“would be as bad as Abu Ghraib.”

But the Pentagon’s top officials were apparently unconcerned about the effect such a disclosure might have on the conduct of the war or on Bush’s public standing. When colleagues complained to Shaffer that including a religious message with an intelligence briefing seemed inappropriate, Shaffer politely informed them that the practice would continue, because “my seniors”—JCS chairman Richard Myers, Rumsfeld, and the commander in chief himself—appreciated the cover pages.

The Scripture-adorned cover sheets illustrate one specific complaint I heard again and again: that Rumsfeld’s tactics—such as playing a religious angle with the president—often ran counter to sound decision-making and could, occasionally, compromise the administration’s best interests. In the case of the sheets, publicly flaunting his own religious views was not at all the SecDef’s style—“Rumsfeld was old-fashioned that way,” Shaffer acknowledged when I contacted him about the briefings—but it was decidedly Bush’s style, and Rumsfeld likely saw the Scriptures as a way of making a personal connection with a president who frequently quoted the Bible. No matter that, if leaked, the images would reinforce impressions that the administration was embarking on a religious war and could escalate tensions with the Muslim world. The sheets were not Rumsfeld’s direct invention—and he could thus distance himself from them, should that prove necessary.

Still, the sheer cunning of pairing unsentimental intelligence with religious righteousness bore the signature of one man: Donald Rumsfeld. And as historians slog through the smoke and mirrors of his tenure, they may find that Rumsfeld’s most enduring legacy will be the damage he did to Bush’s.



This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while.

-- George W Bush, Sunday, September 16, 2001

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Now, the article itself is mostly about Rumsfeld & goes on to tell how he mucked up a number of other things. But these cover sheets really bother me.

Truth be told, I still view Bush as the puppet & Cheney & Rumsfeld as the Puppeteers. Looks like "Rummy" knew just how to pull those strings too.



Edited, May 18th 2009 3:23am by Omegavegeta
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#2 May 18 2009 at 12:30 AM Rating: Default
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NO.
#3 May 18 2009 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Nothing wrong with crusading.
#4 May 18 2009 at 1:01 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Nothing wrong with crusading.


Tell that to a Muslim.
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#5 May 18 2009 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
Nothing wrong with crusading.


Tell that to a Muslim.


I'm speaking specifically to Mulsims.
#6 May 18 2009 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I'm speaking specifically to Mulsims.


No you're not. You're typing to Muslims.

And your twat-like attempt to troll is too tame a topic to translate.
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#7 May 18 2009 at 2:01 AM Rating: Good
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This does not surprise me at all. George and his friends are very weird people with a narrow view on the world and how they think it should work.
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#8 May 18 2009 at 2:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
I'm speaking specifically to Mulsims.


No you're not. You're typing to Muslims.

And your twat-like attempt to troll is too tame a topic to translate.


Lets be honest here. You're not going to debate the different opinion radical Muslims have to other religions as much as the crusades attempted to spread Christianity.

Was Bush's was in Iraq a 'holy war'? For that to be true, you'd have to believe that Bush had the cause of righteousness on his side, I do not. As most Muslims fighting against Allied forces in the Middle East also believe the same, you can see how these things progress.

You seem to be getting bent out of shape by a little humour. Sorry 'bout that.
#9 May 18 2009 at 2:14 AM Rating: Excellent
I don't think we went to war for religious reasons. But there's no doubt that religion was used an an extra motivator, either for the troops, or the folks at home. There was a religious resonance in this conflict for a lot people, including for the people that fought against the invasion and occupation in Iraq. We Western atheists/agnostics may not feel it, but it doesn't mean it wasn't there. Even Blair spoke in semi-religious terms about the Iraq War.

I can't say I'm very surprised by these flyers. The kids we send to die in far away places, they need to find a reason for being there too. They need a reason to die. A cause. Placing this context in a religious light is just another form of brainwashing for the people susceptible to this kind of language and ideas. Nothing very surprising here. You don't find many atheist suicide-bombers.

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#10 May 18 2009 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
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Goggy wrote:
Lets be honest here. You're not going to debate the different opinion radical Muslims have to other religions as much as the crusades attempted to spread Christianity.


Let's draw a distinction.

A crusade is a popular movement with religious motivations and usually with a violent, militaristic bent. A jihad, as understood by modern radical Muslim fundamentalists, is violent and religiously motivated, but it isn't a popular movement. Muslim fundamentalists form an incredibly small minority of the greater Muslim population. The "justification" for their craziness stems from the fact that around the early eighties, they reinterpreted the concept of jihad to include individual acts of terrorism.

If tens of thousands of people from Afghanistan decided to cross the Atlantic and invade New York, you'd have a basis for comparison with a crusade. Instead, some crazy people hijacked a bunch of planes to make a dramatic statement against a culture they believed was the Great Satan. Calling that a crusade does an immense injustice to the term "crusade".

For the same reason, calling the Iraq War a crusade is quite ludicrously inaccurate. The invasion of Iraq was a totally modern war that was given a religious slant due to the fact that Bush was a fundamentalist born-again Christian and his targets were Sunni Muslims. They didn't invade Iraq because the Bible demanded it, they used Biblical imagery to justify their otherwise totally secular invasion to the masses of religiously-minded people who voted for them.

Edited, May 18th 2009 11:48am by zepoodle
#11 May 18 2009 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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zepoodle wrote:

Let's draw a distinction.

A crusade is a popular movement with religious motivations and usually with a violent, militaristic bent. A jihad, as understood by modern radical Muslim fundamentalists, is violent and religiously motivated, but it isn't a popular movement. Muslim fundamentalists form an incredibly small minority of the greater Muslim population. The "justification" for their craziness stems from the fact that around the early eighties, they reinterpreted the concept of jihad to include individual acts of terrorism.


I think the term is moot. We refer to the 'crusades' because that is what was believe at that time, much as fundamental Muslims use 'jihad'. Surely all acts carried out in religious belief are interpretations from the written or spoken, sometimes twisted by religious leaders for their own means?

Quote:

If tens of thousands of people from Afghanistan decided to cross the Atlantic and invade New York, you'd have a basis for comparison with a crusade. Instead, some crazy people hijacked a bunch of planes to make a dramatic statement against a culture they believed was the Great Satan. Calling that a crusade does an immense injustice to the term "crusade".


Can you do injustice to the crusades? It's all relative, if you spoke to the Moors of the time I'm sure they'd tell you that the injustice was done to them.

Quote:

For the same reason, calling the Iraq War a crusade is quite ludicrously inaccurate. The invasion of Iraq was a totally modern war that was given a religious slant due to the fact that Bush was a fundamentalist born-again Christian and his targets were Sunni Muslims. They didn't invade Iraq because the Bible demanded it, they used Biblical imagery to justify their otherwise totally secular invasion to the masses of religiously-minded people who voted for them.

Edited, May 18th 2009 11:48am by zepoodle


I agree partly. I think it was easier for W to drum up support for his campaign by using terms like crusade, and labelling countries part of an 'axis of evil'.
#12 May 18 2009 at 4:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I can't say I'm very surprised by these flyers. The kids we send to die in far away places, they need to find a reason for being there too. They need a reason to die. A cause. Placing this context in a religious light is just another form of brainwashing for the people susceptible to this kind of language and ideas.
Well, according to the article, these covers weren't meant for the rank-and-file. They were just meant for a small handful at the top:
GQ wrote:
This document, known as the Worldwide Intelligence Update, was a daily digest of critical military intelligence so classified that it circulated among only a handful of Pentagon leaders and the president; Rumsfeld himself often delivered it, by hand, to the White House
If a half-dozen guys want to slap Biblical passages on something that only they're intended to be looking at, that doesn't really bother me. I'm no fan of the former president but if he wasn't already thinking that he was doing God's will then I doubt some poorly assembled cover sheets were what tipped him over. It sounds more like Rumsfeld was playing up to what he knew the president already appreciated rather than trying to lead him down new paths with it.
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#13 May 18 2009 at 4:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Goggy wrote:
I think the term is moot. We refer to the 'crusades' because that is what was believe at that time, much as fundamental Muslims use 'jihad'. Surely all acts carried out in religious belief are interpretations from the written or spoken, sometimes twisted by religious leaders for their own means?


I'm not sure what you're actually saying. Crusades and jihads both fall under the umbrella term "religiously motivated violence", but that doesn't make them synonymous. The terms are most definitely not moot. They're about as similar as apples and oranges. You need to understand what these terms actually mean before you can start throwing them around.

Quote:
Can you do injustice to the crusades? It's all relative, if you spoke to the Moors of the time I'm sure they'd tell you that the injustice was done to them.


I'm not going to get into a moral argument, but what you said was still really fucking inaccurate.
#14 May 18 2009 at 5:24 AM Rating: Decent
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zepoodle wrote:
I'm not sure what you're actually saying. Crusades and jihads both fall under the umbrella term "religiously motivated violence", but that doesn't make them synonymous. The terms are most definitely not moot. They're about as similar as apples and oranges. You need to understand what these terms actually mean before you can start throwing them around.


I understand just fine. I use moot in the term that it doesn't matter whether they are crusading or the crusaders were carrying out a jihad, it was, and still is, violence under the banner of religion.

Bin Laden referred to the West as 'crusaders' when he issued his fatwa.

Quote:

I'm not going to get into a moral argument, but what you said was still really fucking inaccurate.


Make your point or bow out. You can't generalise a debate and then claim that everyone else is wrong.
#15 May 18 2009 at 5:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure what you're actually saying. Crusades and jihads both fall under the umbrella term "religiously motivated violence", but that doesn't make them synonymous. The terms are most definitely not moot. They're about as similar as apples and oranges. You need to understand what these terms actually mean before you can start throwing them around.


I do. You're wrong. They're synonyms in modern usage, and essentially always have been. There are differences in the word origins, but no, they are not "apples and oranges".
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#16 May 18 2009 at 5:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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If this was in Australia these cover papers, if they were cover papers for Executive Government OR Armed forces use would be in and of themselves a huge scandal. The separation of Church and State is taken very seriously here, although we do regularly have politicians who are highly religious themselves, and elected in full knowledge of their faith. This includes very powerful past and present Members of Parliament (Congress), Ministers (Secretaries) and Prime Ministers (Presidents).

When "On the Job" pollies are expected to ditch any religion at the door. They are welcome and expected to vote on their moral consciences, and usually their faith (or atheism) is known, so people expect that their morals that guide their votes will be guided by their faiths. But they'd never get away in a million years with making faith based arguments in politics, or quoting religious sources, or using religious imagery. If they are going to argue a moral issue, they have to speak in purely secular ethical terms.

#17 May 18 2009 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I guess if you truly are faithful to your religion, and you're the Pres, or s General, or CIA director, or whatever, and you've instigated and are fighting a war, and asking others to join you in your war, well, how could your actions not, on a personal level, be grounded in, justified and even deemed necessary to satisfy your religious beliefs?
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#18 May 18 2009 at 6:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I can't say I'm very surprised by these flyers. The kids we send to die in far away places, they need to find a reason for being there too. They need a reason to die. A cause. Placing this context in a religious light is just another form of brainwashing for the people susceptible to this kind of language and ideas.
Well, according to the article, these covers weren't meant for the rank-and-file. They were just meant for a small handful at the top:
GQ wrote:
This document, known as the Worldwide Intelligence Update, was a daily digest of critical military intelligence so classified that it circulated among only a handful of Pentagon leaders and the president; Rumsfeld himself often delivered it, by hand, to the White House
If a half-dozen guys want to slap Biblical passages on something that only they're intended to be looking at, that doesn't really bother me. I'm no fan of the former president but if he wasn't already thinking that he was doing God's will then I doubt some poorly assembled cover sheets were what tipped him over. It sounds more like Rumsfeld was playing up to what he knew the president already appreciated rather than trying to lead him down new paths with it.


Many folks at the top can't pass to get a TS clearance, though. I've never heard of people with TS clearances or even TS/SCI getting paper handouts, that seems a little far fetched.

Don't they usually use sipper net? (or however it's spelled) SIPRNET.
#19 May 18 2009 at 7:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Beats me. I'm going off the article.
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#20 May 18 2009 at 7:11 AM Rating: Default
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Smasharoo wrote:
I do. You're wrong. They're synonyms in modern usage, and essentially always have been. There are differences in the word origins, but no, they are not "apples and oranges".


You could treat them as synonyms, but you'd be wrong, and you'd also annoy the Sufis.

Goggy wrote:
Bin Laden referred to the West as 'crusaders' when he issued his fatwa.


Yes. I know that. I've read the fatwa. Do you know why he was wrong when he said that? Because America is not on crusade. A crusade is something totally different to what America is doing.

Goggy wrote:
Make your point or bow out. You can't generalise a debate and then claim that everyone else is wrong.


This is a topic about the Iraq War being a crusade. My argument is "no." I made that point fairly clear in my first post.
#21 May 18 2009 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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I've never heard of people with TS clearances or even TS/SCI getting paper handouts, that seems a little far fetched.


Happens all the time. We can print from SIPRNET. When you're prepping the boss for a meeting, a printed book is typical.

To clarify, though, SIPRNET is only cleared for Secret info. Other systems are used for TS and above.
#22 May 18 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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zepoodle wrote:
Yes. I know that. I've read the fatwa. Do you know why he was wrong when he said that? Because America is not on crusade. A crusade is something totally different to what America is doing.


What are you [sic] doing then? 0 points if you say "war on terror".

Goggy wrote:
Make your point or bow out. You can't generalise a debate and then claim that everyone else is wrong.


zepoodle wrote:
This is a topic about the Iraq War being a crusade. My argument is "no." I made that point fairly clear in my first post.


You said this:

zepoodle wrote:
I'm not going to get into a moral argument, but what you said was still really @#%^ing inaccurate.


You need to explain why and how you think I am wrong. I can't think for you.

Edited, May 18th 2009 3:25pm by Goggy
#23 May 18 2009 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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#24 May 18 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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I was just a boy when the infidels came to my village in their Blackhawk helicopters. The infidels fired at the oil fields and they lit up like the eyes of Allah. Burning oil rained down from the sky and cooked everything it touched. I could only hide myself and cry as my goats were consumed by the fiery black liquid death. In the midst of the chaos, I could swear that I heard my goats screaming for help. As quickly as they had come, the infidels were gone. It was on that day I put a jihad on them. And if you don't believe it, then you'd better kill me now, because I'll put a jihad on you, too.
#25 May 18 2009 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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There are way too many crazies who have power in the republican party that are "end of days" MotherfUckers, looking to push us towards the point of the second coming. Of course, that's not the only reason or even the major reason. It is most likely economic colonialism driving the neoconservatives, who at their very core, are greedy capitalists bastards who hide behind Christianity as an explanation for their lust for hegemonic power. Here in the US we have the growth of the prison industrial complex. Internationally, we either have deregulation or corporate colonialism, all for the sake of strengthening multinational corporation. We end up in the US having a pseudo-democracy that is enslaved by corporate interests, which is why the GOP contradictory called for small government, lowering classes and cutting social welfare programs, while spending ********* on nation-building and corporate welfare.
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#26 May 18 2009 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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zepoodle wrote:
Goggy wrote:
Bin Laden referred to the West as 'crusaders' when he issued his fatwa.


Yes. I know that. I've read the fatwa. Do you know why he was wrong when he said that? Because America is not on crusade. A crusade is something totally different to what America is doing.


Well. Yes and no. One use of the word has a specific religious connotation. But the word itself is used commonly to simply refer to any difficult cause or conflict.


I think the larger point is that words like this will be used to evoke specific emotions based on the target audience and the speaker. If OBL wants people to view the actions of the US as some kind of religious oppression, then he'll use the word "crusade". I think you'll get yourself into trouble trying to find any deeper meaning than that...
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