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Outed CIA operativesFollow

#127 May 05 2009 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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hangtennow wrote:
Pensive,

Quote:
I consider far right individuals approximately as dangerous to the country as terrorists, and I wouldn't be surprised if you felt the same about far left individuals varrus, but under no circumstances in the world would I want you tortured.


If I knew you were associating with radical terrorist types and suspected that you were in on a plot to attack civilians I would be all for doing what needed to be done to ensure the civilians are safe from attack.

I'd better do my civic duty and point DHS towards your "burn Chicago" posts, then.
#128 May 05 2009 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, when I ask a question like that, I'm not really interested in five paragraphs of Gbaji-guesses. I'm asking for a source perhaps more authoritative than you.


Er? Common sense? Every crime drama you've ever watched? If the cops pick up 5 guys suspected of a crime, what do they do? They separate them and question them individually. Then the compare their stories. The things that match are probably true. The things that aren't mean that one or more of them is lying. From this, you can piece together the "truth" of the matter.

This isn't freaking rocket science Joph. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the folks running interrogations at Gitmo use similar methods to determine fact from lie. My point is that whether any single piece of information gained via X method or Y method is likely to be accurate really isn't the issue. People lie when they don't want you to know the truth. Period. But, if in the course of questioning a number of people, certain common statements appear, those are likely to be true. This happens regardless of method used.
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#129 May 05 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Haha. I never expected "I saw it on a cop drama."



There were lots of things I saw on Cop Rock that could be used as torture.

Edited, May 5th 2009 3:55pm by baelnic
#130 May 05 2009 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Er? Common sense?
Yeah, you already tried that. Now try again where you're not just making stuff up and saying "It's common sense!"

I find it strange that something so plainly known is so hard for you to back up with anything beyond your own words.
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They separate them and question them individually. Then the compare their stories
That's not what I was questioning. I was plainly questioning your assertion that the results of any means of questioning was about equally accurate. So any time you want to cite some stuff you saw on a CBS late night movie as your support of that (or keep saying "It's common sense!"), lemme know.
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#131 May 05 2009 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no idea why other nations would accept our prisoners. Are they supposed to hold trials for them? Interrogate them? Hold them according to their justice code or according to ours? What's in it for them?


Big bags of cash. This wasn't really a mystery, was it?
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#132 May 05 2009 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I'll take guy number two and pull his fingernails off one by one until he talks.


gbaji wrote:
Every crime drama you've ever watched?


Interview with Joel Surnow (one of the creators of '24'.

Quote:
"I think torture does work. It would work on me! I believe torture has been around since the beginning of time because it works. I just think that for any person in the circumstances that Jack Bauer is in, you'd be a fool not to. If someone's family was going to be killed in 10 minutes unless you tortured something out of somebody, they would do it. A lot of these experts, people in the human rights field, will tell you it doesn't work, it may not work, that there may be more humane ways to get information out of people, and I believe that, but in our show, if you have 10 minutes to stop a nuclear bomb, tell me what you're going to do. I mean, it's unrealistic, and it's not how the world works, but we're not purporting to be the world, and we're creating our own little world. And we're not saying it's good, bad or whatever. We're saying, tell me what you would do. I would bet there are a lot of soldiers fighting wars, on all sides, in all sorts of conflicts, under pressure when the bullets are flying and wanting information, who do all sorts of things. And I don't want to know about it. I just want to be safe. We're just exposing a little of what maybe does happen. The military hates it. People call us a conservative show, but the military will tell you they never use it. We use it as a last resort."
Link.

A fine illustration of how evil has been allowed to triumph over reality. Never mind that torture has never been scientifically proven to work. Forget reality, forget morals. Forget the whole point of the fight against extremism ('They kill innocents! The barbarity of it!), fuck all that. JUST KEEP ME SAFE!!!11!11

Gbaji (and varrus), victim(s) of 'popular' culture par exellence.

Hey guys!! How is life at the bottom of that pit of fear and paranoia that you appear to have found yourselves in?? /wave

Fucking pussies.

It would also go a long way to explain your horror of all things ghey too I expect....
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#133 May 05 2009 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Big bags of cash. This wasn't really a mystery, was it?
Not really. I'd expect they'd get some form of compensation for cleaning up our mess. So the problem is really that we just need a larger sack of cash to make it worth their while.
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#134 May 05 2009 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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That 24 thing...there's actually documented evidence that high-ranking government officials and military people have been unduly influenced to support torture by watching Jack Bauer. Pretty sad.

http://www.slate.com/id/2195864/

Quote:
According to British lawyer and writer Philippe Sands, Jack Bauer—played by Kiefer Sutherland—was an inspiration at early "brainstorming meetings" of military officials at Guantanamo in September of 2002. Diane Beaver, the staff judge advocate general who gave legal approval to 18 controversial new interrogation techniques including water-boarding, sexual humiliation, and terrorizing prisoners with dogs, told Sands that Bauer "gave people lots of ideas." Michael Chertoff, the homeland-security chief, once gushed in a panel discussion on 24 organized by the Heritage Foundation that the show "reflects real life."

John Yoo, the former Justice Department lawyer who produced the so-called torture memos—simultaneously redefining both the laws of torture and logic—cites Bauer in his book War by Other Means. "What if, as the popular Fox television program '24' recently portrayed, a high-level terrorist leader is caught who knows the location of a nuclear weapon?" Even Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, speaking in Canada last summer, shows a gift for this casual toggling between television and the Constitution. "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles. … He saved hundreds of thousands of lives," Scalia said. "Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?"

#135 May 05 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
That's not what I was questioning. I was plainly questioning your assertion that the results of any means of questioning was about equally accurate. So any time you want to cite some stuff you saw on a CBS late night movie as your support of that (or keep saying "It's common sense!"), lemme know.


First off. I love how you zero in on the least relevant statement(s) in my posts in an attempt to discredit them without actually addressing the issue at hand. My point was that the likelihood of any single piece of information gained from a captured enemy is low no matter what method you use. Thus, the statement that "torture/interrogation doesn't work", supported with arguments about how unlikely you are to get accurate information, is irrelevant.

The exact statement I said was this:

How it's gained really doesn't increase the likelihood of it being accurate much.

I did *not* say that they were the same accuracy. I said it wont increase it "much" depending on which method you use. Context Joph. "Much" in this context is related to whether you can act on the information you've gained. If .1% of information gained via torture is accurate, and 1% of information gained via wining and dining is accurate, neither one produces information at a high enough accuracy level to help you. They're essentially both "Trash" if taken just by themselves. Remember. The point I was making is that all single sources of captured enemy intelligence is "trash" regardless of how you get it. Way to miss the forest for the trees though...
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#136 May 05 2009 at 5:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
First off. I love how you zero in on the least relevant statement(s) in my posts...
Ah, and so it begins. WWAAHHH!!!! YOU READ MY POST AND FOUND A FLAW IN IT!!! YOU DIDN'T BLINDLY ACCEPT MY CONCLUSIONS!! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ANY OF MY FACTOIDS!! WWAAAHHHHHH!!!!
Quote:
I did *not* say that they were the same accuracy. I said it wont increase it "much" depending on which method you use.
I made a point of using the "generally" or "about" qualifiers each time for exactly that reason. But nice try at a weasel.
Quote:
If .1% of information gained via torture is accurate, and 1% of information gained via wining and dining is accurate
And if we just make up numbers and pull them out of our ***, we can claim anything we want is correct and just keep stomping our feet and shouting "Common sense!!" and "That's not the point!!!" over and over and over.

Seeing as how you have yet to back it up after three posts with anything beyond variants of "Cause I said so", I'll safely assume that that's all you got. Not that there was ever a question, of course, but it's nice to be proven correct.
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#137 May 05 2009 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Um... Whatever Joph.


True or False: Information gained from a single enemy combatant is unlikely to be accurate or truthful regardless of the method used to gain the information.


Everything else is irrelevant window dressing you've chosen to obsess over.
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#138 May 05 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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True or false.

The use of torture on prisoners is one of things that seperates the 'good' guys from the evil-doers.
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#139 May 05 2009 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
True or False: Information gained from a single enemy combatant is unlikely to be accurate or truthful regardless of the method used to gain the information.
Wasn't my question.
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Everything else is irrelevant window dressing you've chosen to obsess over
Funny how that's always the case when it's clear that you just made something up, insisted it was fact and then get cornered on it.

"It never mattered! I don't have to prove anything!!!"

No matter how lovely the forest is, if someone says "That tree there is an oak" and it's not... guess what? They're still wrong.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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