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#127 Apr 07 2009 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Bad example. Young-earth creationism requires an enormous amount of mind-bending self delusion and a complete rejection of the scientific method.


And here's why ... the scientific evidence leads to an inevitable scientific conclusion that the Earth, and life on Earth, is much older than 6,000 years. So here, to believe in a creation 6,000 years ago requires rejecting the conclusion supported by the scientific evidence.

The only faith-based assertion that would try to accomodate the scientific evidence is that God put the evidence there. (To fool us? To test us?) But this position still rejects the conclusion that follows from the evidence.

Interestng side note ... if you want to read a single source that systematically presents the evidence for evolution ... see Why Evolution is True, just published, written by Jerry A. Coyne, evolutionary geneticist at the University of Chicago. He consolidates evidence from genetics, biogeography, paleontology, and other areas of science. Excellent reading.
#128 Apr 07 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Do you have scientific proof for that statement? Or do you just believe it?


I really don't think that you'd understand

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Bull.


Neither did you
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Here's the thing, though; you can have a total and solid belief in all the functions and laws of science, and still believe that God made it all out of nothing six thousand years ago. After all, he's God.


You really can't.

The science and functions of the laws of science are justified by a way of thinking that is entirely incompatible with the belief in god. You can't do science and religion in the same breath.

What you can do is be religious and be a scientific charlatan.

Edited, Apr 7th 2009 1:54pm by Pensive
#129 Apr 07 2009 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Fuck science, fuck religion, I believe in my daughter. I win.
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#130 Apr 07 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fuck science, fuck religion and fuck your daughter. Now I win!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#131 Apr 07 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, well, your mom.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#132 Apr 07 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
Fuck science, fuck religion and fuck your daughter. Now I win!


Fuck science, fuck religion, fuck your daughter and fuck your win. I believe in Joe Pesci. That's win.
#133 Apr 07 2009 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I really don't think that you'd understand


Too bad you said "think." I really wanted to ask if you had scientific evidence for this or just a belief.
#134 Apr 07 2009 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Too bad you said "think." I really wanted to ask if you had scientific evidence for this or just a belief.


You don't use scientific evidence to prove the legitimacy of science. It would be stupid to even try.

The validity of science is epistemological. It is a way of appraising the world so that you are very careful about not making claims outside of the bounds of human cognition.

God is a claim outside the bounds of human cognition. It is impossible for it to EVER be reconciled with science. Any beliefs about god cannot be reconciled with science, because if someone was practicing science, they would never even come up with beliefs about god.

They'd have to get those beliefs from somewhere else, some other epistemology.

And the two epistemologies simply conflict when that happens. You are forced to pick one or the other. It's not possible to have both.
#135 Apr 07 2009 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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You don't use scientific evidence to prove the legitimacy of science. It would be stupid to even try.


I didn't say anything about proving the validity of science. I was referring to your assertion that I wouldn't understand. Seems like "you would not understand" is a testable hypothesis.

But keep arguing with yourself. It's interesting.

Edit: and I do get it ... your philosophical and epistemological claims are not based on faith or science.

Edited, Apr 7th 2009 3:58pm by Ahkuraj
#136 Apr 07 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Faith.

Meaning a belief held in the absence of evidence or in contradiction to any or even all relevant available evidence.

Science.

Knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method .

I reject any belief put forward with no evidence to support it. Moreso if that belief is actually contradictory to the availiable evidence.

Science and faith, imo, cannot honestly co-exist for an individual. If they could (wich they can't) then it would mean that nothing (or everything) is true.

Thats my concern with the religious. Their peculiar ability to say on one hand, that the bible is the infallible word of God, whilst simultaneously interpreting His word any way they please ('cos, you know, this is the 21st Century and well, the Bible (or *insert holy book here*) was written a long time ago, and times change, and stuff.....)

Dishonsty, plain and simple.

And while I'm here, Varus asked me a question a couple of pages ago, wich I answered.

I had asked him to define 'God'. He still hasn't. So, I'm calling him out..

Varus. Will you define 'God' for me as you understand the term.

If you wont, my opinion of you will drop even lower than it is already.

C'mon, defend your belief.
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#137 Apr 07 2009 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I was hoping my thread could turn into a boring religion debate.

As opposed to a boring discussion about demographic trends?
#138REDACTED, Posted: Apr 07 2009 at 2:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Paula,
#139 Apr 07 2009 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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I have some difficulty imagining your sister as anything other than a 2 bagger tbh.
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"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#140REDACTED, Posted: Apr 07 2009 at 2:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Paula,
#141 Apr 07 2009 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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hangtennow wrote:
Paula,

I find it difficult to believe you're not a virgin...oh wait nm you are one.



Merciless rapier-like wit! I'm truly devestated. Lol.
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#142 Apr 07 2009 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Vagina Dentata,
what a wonderful phrase
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I find it interesting how pedantic and simplistic people on this board get about religion, as if saying that if you aren't a fundamentalist, you are a hypocrite and then they talk about how much they hate fundamentalists b/c they take a literal, unscientific view. It's like people are looking for a straw man. No wonder every religious debate devolves into retardation.
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#143 Apr 07 2009 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Warchief Annabella wrote:
I find it interesting how pedantic and simplistic people on this board get about religion, as if saying that if you aren't a fundamentalist, you are a hypocrite and then they talk about how much they hate fundamentalists b/c they take a literal, unscientific view. It's like people are looking for a straw man. No wonder every religious debate devolves into retardation.


There's no such thing as middle ground. If you've heard of it, it's probably a religious scientific religious conspiracy.
#144 Apr 07 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Warchief Annabella wrote:
I find it interesting how pedantic and simplistic people on this board get about religion, as if saying that if you aren't a fundamentalist, you are a hypocrite and then they talk about how much they hate fundamentalists b/c they take a literal, unscientific view. It's like people are looking for a straw man. No wonder every religious debate devolves into retardation.


The fact that this is the Asylum, and as such requires a certain amount of verbal assault and battery to be fun aside for a moment.....



The significance of religeous faith in modern society makes it a special case.

It is present in all areas of our lives and (to me anyway) reveals qualities of the obedience to authority that is demanded by those in positions of power, and so freely given by so many of us without questioning why we should give it.

When you take into account that religeous faith is based upon nothing more than old-fashioned superstition, then I feel obligated to point out the contradictions that arise.

This is the 21st century. And yet we allow huge parts of our lives to be dictated by 'superstition'. I'm not saying that people of faith are bad people. Some of the bestest people I've met around the world are as devout as you can get. But for the society to base its moral and behavioural codes and norms around a superstition is so far removed from an 'intellectual' way of living that it needs to be constantly challenged.

'Normality' is the opinion of the majority.

I do not want my 'normality' to be defined by people whose reality is defined by superstition. And I struggle to accept as valid, the PoV of any individual who will acknowledge the 'authority' of a superstition.

If they are prepared to acknowledge that authority without question, then what else will they accept without question?? That Iraq possesed WMD's? That Iran is bent on destroying Israel? That the US is the 'Great Satan'?

Where does it end? I guess the answer to that is somewhere in the region of Varus.

As far as I know, no countries leaders are making decisions and basing their policies on the patterns made by the entrails of a freshly slaughtered goat. If they were, and we found out about it we would be rightly affronted by the idiocy of their behaviour. Yet we happily (some of us anyway) give obeisance to governments and leaders who allow their policy decisions to be influenced by sections of society whose belief system would be more at home in the company of the primitive beliefs of hunter-gatherer societies from 10,000 years ago.

I find that unacceptable, and will continue to rail against it.



Edited, Apr 8th 2009 12:43am by paulsol
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"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#145 Apr 07 2009 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
Yet we happily (some of us anyway) give obeisance to governments and leaders who allow their policy decisions to be influenced by sections of society whose belief system would be more at home in the company of the primitive beliefs of hunter-gatherer societies from 10,000 years ago.

I find that unacceptable, and will continue to rail against it.
What we need to do is stop giving those damned Christians, Muslims and Jews the right to vote. That'll learn 'em.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#146 Apr 07 2009 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
What we need to do is stop giving those damned Christians, Muslims and Jews the right to vote. That'll learn 'em.


No. We need to stop treating peoples superstitions and unfounded belief in the supernatural as though they have some sort of validity.



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"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#147 Apr 07 2009 at 7:07 PM Rating: Good
Vagina Dentata,
what a wonderful phrase
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I say we burn Jophiel at the stake.
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#148 Apr 07 2009 at 7:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
No. We need to stop treating peoples superstitions and unfounded belief in the supernatural as though they have some sort of validity.
We who?

I have news for you -- if 70% of the nation believed in unicorns and felt that unicorn belief was important then politicans who agreed with the existance of unicorns would win every election. The only way to stop it is to stop letting unicorn-believers vote. What "we" think about unicorns or how "we" treat those people has fuck all to do with it. I suppose "we" could try to insult and marginalize those people so they feel inspired to vote for whoever shows the most conviction in unicorns and who'll work the hardest to present unicornesque points of view. Yeah... that should work!

Welcome to politics.

Edited, Apr 7th 2009 10:23pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#149 Apr 07 2009 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Faith.

Meaning a belief held in the absence of evidence or in contradiction to any or even all relevant available evidence.
not really. This is a pretty horrible understanding of faith, but it does explain a lot about your views and posts.

Quote:
I find it interesting how pedantic and simplistic people on this board get about religion, as if saying that if you aren't a fundamentalist, you are a hypocrite and then they talk about how much they hate fundamentalists b/c they take a literal, unscientific view. It's like people are looking for a straw man. No wonder every religious debate devolves into retardation.
I don't find it surprising anymore. Some of the amazing anti-religious views on this forum always take me aback a little, but I've gotten used to them.

Quote:
And I struggle to accept as valid, the PoV of any individual who will acknowledge the 'authority' of a superstition.

If they are prepared to acknowledge that authority without question, then what else will they accept without question??
I would say that this is a potential problem of faith, but not an inescapable one by any means. Most of the people I know that take their faith seriously spend a great deal of time questioning and examining their beliefs. The idea of just accepting teaching and authority without questioning it should not be part of the Christian faith in my opinion. I'm not denying that it does show up, I'm just saying that it's not part and parcel of it.

Edited, Apr 7th 2009 10:29pm by Xsarus
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#150 Apr 07 2009 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
We who?

I have news for you -- if 70% of the nation believed in talking snakes and virgin birth and the walking dead and felt that talking snakes and virgin birth and the walking dead belief was important then politicans who agreed with the existance of talking snakes and virgin birth and the walking dead would win every election. The only way to stop it is to stop letting talking snakes and virgin birth and the walking dead-believers vote. What "we" think about talking snakes and virgin birth and the walking dead or how "we" treat those people has fuck all to do with it. I suppose "we" could try to insult and marginalize those people so they feel inspired to vote for whoever shows the most conviction in talking snakes and virgin birth and the walking dead and who'll work the hardest to present these superstitious points of view. Yeah... that should work!

Welcome to politics.

Edited, Apr 7th 2009 10:23pm by Jophiel


Smiley: laugh Like I have any more respect for the way todays politics works, than I do for folk basing their behaviour around possible repurcussions/eternal rewards from supernatural beings......

If you feel that unicorn belief is a satisfactory foundation for deciding, say....foreign or social policy tho, you go for it. But I'm afraid I wont be sitting on my hands waiting for any sensible decisions to come from it.

Continuing to grant superstitious belief a validity that it does not deserve will only delay the steps forward that humananity as a whole needs to make before we can aproach some sort of honest evaluation of our collective place in the world.

Keep making excuses and feeling 'insulted' (a word I've heard a few times in these discussions) if you like. But if the alternative is for me to 'respect' someones superstitions because 'lots of people think like that', then I'm going to carry on finding their beliefs ridiculous at best, and downright dangerous at worst.




____________________________
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#151 Apr 07 2009 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
Keep making excuses and feeling 'insulted' (a word I've heard a few times in these discussions) if you like.
Oh, I'm not insulted. If anything, I'm amused by your naive idea that throwing a hissy fit about people faith is going to somehow change the political scene. I'm also amused at how people who get all worked up about religion find the most counter-productive ways possible of dealing with it.

But insulted? Please. This is the internet -- getting worried about angry athiests is like getting upset that you're surrounded by air.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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