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#52 Feb 27 2009 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
I've seen Republicans use the term "Fiscal Responsibility" to mean borrow more money than every prior president combined.



Really? Give one example please.


I'll give you two: Ronald Reagan and George Bush.
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#53 Feb 27 2009 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
gbaji wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
I've seen Republicans use the term "Fiscal Responsibility" to mean borrow more money than every prior president combined.



Really? Give one example please.


I'll give you two: Ronald Reagan and George Bush.


So those two actually used the term "fiscal responsibility" and defined it as "borrowing more money than every prior president combined? That seems unlikely... ;)

Ok. On a more serious note, I'll address what I'm assuming you actually mean, which is that while those two talked about fiscal responsibility, they borrowed a lot of money. I think the disagreement is on what is "responsible" fiscal policy.

Let's consider two scenarios:

1. I borrow a million dollars and spend it expanding my business with a hope that increased revenue down the line will pay off the debt and generate a net positive financial effect.

2. I borrow half a million dollars and spend it on hookers and blow.


Can we agree that simply looking at the dollar amount borrowed doesn't tell us at all if the policy involved is "responsible"? Responsible doesn't automatically mean "low cost". In this context, it means using monetary policy in a way that is designed to produce a positive result over time.


In case you're wondering, I'm challenging the premise of your argument, not the literal words.
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#54 Feb 27 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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1. I borrow a million dollars and spend it on lasers from space that don't really exist, pew pew pew!!! which leads to the fall of a totalitarian state and shortly thereafter the rise of um, a totalitarian state OR I use it to prosecute a war against a powerless enemy that results in thousands of dead Americans, hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi's and tens of thousands of twenty something vets maimed and crippled for life

2. I borrow half a million dollars and spend it on hookers and blow.


Yeah, honestly, I'm going to have to go with the hookers on this one.
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#55 Feb 27 2009 at 6:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
In this context, it means using monetary policy in a way that is designed to produce a positive result over time.
Ok, so it's using monetary policy in a way that is designed to produce a positive result over time when Republicans do it, but it's fiscal irresponsibility when the dems try the same thing. Got it, you believe in double standards.
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#56gbaji, Posted: Feb 27 2009 at 6:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Because it also matters what you're doing with the money. The Republicans and the Democrats do not have the same tax policies, right? The Republicans and the Democrats do not spend money on the same things, right?
#57 Feb 27 2009 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
gbaji wrote:
PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
I've seen Republicans use the term "Fiscal Responsibility" to mean borrow more money than every prior president combined.



Really? Give one example please.


I'll give you two: Ronald Reagan and George Bush.


So those two actually used the term "fiscal responsibility" and defined it as "borrowing more money than every prior president combined? That seems unlikely... ;)


Just as unlikely as Catwho defining "personal responsibility" as "do whatever you want with no consequences".

gbaji wrote:

Ok. On a more serious note, I'll address what I'm assuming you actually mean, which is that while those two talked about fiscal responsibility, they borrowed a lot of money. I think the disagreement is on what is "responsible" fiscal policy.

Let's consider two scenarios:

1. I borrow a million dollars and spend it expanding my business with a hope that increased revenue down the line will pay off the debt and generate a net positive financial effect.

2. I borrow half a million dollars and spend it on hookers and blow.


Can we agree that simply looking at the dollar amount borrowed doesn't tell us at all if the policy involved is "responsible"? Responsible doesn't automatically mean "low cost". In this context, it means using monetary policy in a way that is designed to produce a positive result over time.

In case you're wondering, I'm challenging the premise of your argument, not the literal words.


Recession on the verge of depression? Bang up monetary policy there. Smiley: lol
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#58 Feb 27 2009 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Just as unlikely as Catwho defining "personal responsibility" as "do whatever you want with no consequences".


Except that was how she was actually using the term. Did you read her list?

Quote:
gbaji wrote:
Can we agree that simply looking at the dollar amount borrowed doesn't tell us at all if the policy involved is "responsible"? Responsible doesn't automatically mean "low cost". In this context, it means using monetary policy in a way that is designed to produce a positive result over time.


Recession on the verge of depression? Bang up monetary policy there.


The result has nothing to do with the design or intent. Reagan's economic policies produced an amazing economic turn around for the US. When you compare key economic statistics between say 1979 and 1987, it's night and day.

Amusingly the *only* economic measurement which got worse was debt. Every other single indicator improved by absolutely massive amounts. Any guesses why debt and deficit are the one thing Liberals always attack Republicans about?


Bush did the same thing. He turned a recession around by lowering taxes and freezing spending (as much as possible with two wars going on). It's amazing that one again, the *only* economic indicator liberals look at is deficit (not even debt this time, since it doesn't work well as an argument). They compare the last couple years deficits during Clinton's term to the deficits during Bush's term and make massive hay over it. Meanwhile ignoring that Bush inherited and economy headed into recession. The dotcom bubble had burst and there were record bankruptcies occuring. The market was falling. Inflation and Interest rates were rising, and unemployment was rising (although it was still quite good and remained good through all of Bush's term as well). Then 9/11 hit and the markets went into full crash mode.

Bush's policies turned that around as well. Impressively. Oddly, he never gets credit for that because once again, the only indicator the liberals look at is deficit. Let's ignore that right up until the last year and a half of his administration, the economy was booming. Oh no. Let's just look at the amount he borrowed while creating that boom, and then lets focus on a market crash at the end caused by factors that were utterly beyond his control.



I'd toss in the argument about how the economic collapse we're in was caused by liberal economic policies put in place before Bush took office and rabidly defended by Democrats (with some really nasty attacks), not just once, but twice during bush's terms when he and Republican members of congress attempted to fix the problems with the investment banking laws which would very likely have avoided this crisis. I happen to place the blame for what's going on squarely at the feet of the Democrats, so forgive me if I don't take your comment that seriously...
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#59 Feb 27 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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You're opposing his foreign policy record with semantics from a debate he was in back in 2000? For the record he said: "I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and therefore prevent war from happening in the first place.". That's not the same as promising not to do it at all, under any circumstances.


Bush claimed on many occasions both before and after the election in 2000 that he was opposed to nation-building, and not just in reference to Bosnia.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0110/18/se.27.html

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/bush911e.html

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How about not spending it at all?


Good idea we don't really need a government anyway.

Quote:
Do you recall Obama running on a platform including massive increases in social spending?


Yes, isn't that one of the reasons you argued against voting for him? Isn't that what "liberals" do?

Quote:
Love those clever one-liners, don't you? When will liberals look at the substance of an issue instead of just the surface level "style"?


I find it ironic that you urged people to look past the surface and attached a meaningless label to them in the same sentence.


#60gbaji, Posted: Feb 27 2009 at 8:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No. I recall saying this is what he was going to do, and that's why people shouldn't vote for him. I recall a whole bunch of liberals saying "Oh no. He's not going to massively increase spending at all!!!". So. Were all of those people just stupid? Or were they all lying?...
#61 Feb 28 2009 at 4:25 AM Rating: Decent
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No. I recall saying this is what he was going to do, and that's why people shouldn't vote for him. I recall a whole bunch of liberals saying "Oh no. He's not going to massively increase spending at all!!!".


Who are these imaginary "people"? Do you name them?
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#62 Feb 28 2009 at 7:18 AM Rating: Good
He's also stated its a goal to reduce the deficit by half by the end of his first term.

Bush never made any kind of statement like that. In fact, he tried to hide how much the war in Iraq was costing us by never including it in the actual budget.
#63 Feb 28 2009 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
Catwho wrote:
He's also stated its a goal to reduce the deficit by half by the end of his first term.

Bush never made any kind of statement like that. In fact, he tried to hide how much the war in Iraq was costing us by never including it in the actual budget.


Only partly accurate, and entirely misleading, no doubt by design from whomever you got that from.

You should know that anytime you include something in the official national budget, it stays there and God help you if you want to take it out. It is the federal government: THEY LIKE SPENDING, THEY WANT MORE MONEY.

If you leave the cash in their yearly budget, they will KEEP it, even when it is no longer needed, and CONTINUE to use it. For this reason, the war spending was kept off the official budget as a special spending item, not as part of the official budget.

It is not a difficult concept, though through clever manipulation of facts, you, and many others like you, are confused into believing that such a happening is in fact a predatory lie, when in fact it is exactly the opposite.

And if you are foolish enough to believe that you can expand every bloody government program in the country and add on to a debt that is already too big, and then pay for it with military reductions (I'm sorry, military EQUIPMENT reductions, we want to increase troop levels by a hundred thousand, right?) and squeezing those who make more money than you do tighter, then that is entirely your own folly.

I'll have to save that quote; if by some miracle we're all still around in four years, we'll just frakking see if The One turns water into wine with the deficit. Unless he prints more money to add to the budget, in which case sure he can reduce the deficit. snerk.
#64gbaji, Posted: Mar 02 2009 at 1:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sigh. That's how discretionary spending works. It's also how "temporary" spending works. Once you start budgeting something, it tends to carry over year to year. It's not about hiding it, either. It's much much much easier to hide expenses in a multi-thousand page budget than it is to "hide it" from the public by holding special appropriations debates on just that one thing you are asking money for and then asking Congress to vote on it. Let's not pretend that this was about hiding money.
#65 Mar 02 2009 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Random person posts topic of summoning, first posters nod in agreement, gbaji continues to write novels on how stupid he is, joph required by law to post, smash doesn't understand quotes but gets everything else, arguments over semantics, thread dies out of boredom of the same arguments continuing without resolution.
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If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#66REDACTED, Posted: Mar 03 2009 at 8:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ^ This.
#67 Mar 03 2009 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
catwho,

Quote:
He's also stated its a goal to reduce the deficit by half by the end of his first term.


Is this the deficit as it stands now or what it was when he was inagurated?
#68 Mar 03 2009 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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I smell a rat.
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#69 Mar 04 2009 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
I smell a rat.
I call your bluff.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#70 Mar 04 2009 at 6:56 AM Rating: Default
I'm still waiting to see if anyone knows whether President Obama was talking about the deficit as it was when he was elected, inagurated, 6 months into his presidency.

Incidentally I heard him talking about not basing policy on the fluctuations in the market and had a good laugh; especially considering the market has not had one positive day since he's taken over as president. Usually fluctuations include ups and downs.



Edited, Mar 4th 2009 9:57am by bluffratt
#71 Mar 04 2009 at 6:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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bluffratt wrote:
the market has not had one positive day since he's taken over as president.
This statement is inaccurate.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#72 Mar 04 2009 at 7:00 AM Rating: Default
No it's not
#73 Mar 04 2009 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
bluffratt wrote:
the market has not had one positive day since he's taken over as president.
This statement is inaccurate.
You could seriously just always reply to varrus with this response.
#74 Mar 04 2009 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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bluffratt wrote:
No it's not
I seem to see some ups and some downs. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with spatial orientation terms?
#75REDACTED, Posted: Mar 04 2009 at 7:19 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ash,
#76 Mar 04 2009 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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bluffratt wrote:
Ash,

Now use that link to check the previous 6 months results then tell me the market hasn't shot down since Obama was elected. And yes the extent of the fall can be laid at Obama's feet.

If it keeps falling like this the mid-term congressional elections should be interesting.

You're retarded. I mean that in the literal sense. You have serious physical limitations to your learning ability.

Edited, Mar 4th 2009 9:24am by AshOnMyTomatoes
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