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#52 Feb 17 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
Elinda wrote:
Yes, if you were my slave my life would have more value than yours.


Ok, that's really stupid, but at least you answered the question. Thank you.

Red wrote:
As for Kavekk's question, my personal answer is level of consciousness.


Are we talking sentience vs non sentience here, as a kind of binary switch? Or is it more of a sliding scale based on intelligence?
#53 Feb 17 2009 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
Samira wrote:
I'm sure that'll be a great comfort to the child as she grows up hideously deformed as a result of being mauled by the dog she has to see "interacting" with you and your husband while she sits inside.



You said bit, not mauled. Mauling is another topic all together. The dog would be sent to the vet, checked out and depending on the out come either put down or donated to a program. There are several rehabilitation programs for dogs out there or there are programs that take dogs and take them to hospitals to cheer up patients. The dog may have issues with children but doesn't mean they cannot be useful else where.


There are all kinds of programs out there.
#54 Feb 17 2009 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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katie wrote:
Mauling is another topic all together. The dog would be sent to the vet, checked out and depending on the out come either put down or donated to a program. There are several rehabilitation programs for dogs out there or there are programs that take dogs and take them to hospitals to cheer up patients.


"Hi, Mrs. Smithers! How are you feeling after your triple bypass? Would you like to see a dog that mauled a baby?.... Mrs. Smithers?"

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#55 Feb 17 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
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Holy shit, I had to practically run out from my office to avoid breaking into laughter at my desk.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#56 Feb 17 2009 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Re: another thread: If daycares are that concerned about the legal liability in providing soiled underpants, can you imagine the liability involved with dogs known to have mauled a person?

#57 Feb 17 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
You wouldn't give a kid away because you catch a cold every time they come back from daycare, you wouldn't throw the first kid outside to fend for itself because you just birthed your second. I don't think it's fair that you would do it to your pets.


I would.

This is why I'm not having kids, though. I recognize my inherant unreality of putting my cat over potential future children, and simply decided not to have them rather than face a moral prickly pear patch.

Because I'm sorry, my cat comes first.
#58 Feb 17 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey Kavek,

How much gold is a kid worth? For that matter, how much money is any individual worth. The insurance biz has actuarial tables that you can use to equate the dollar worth of a human life. Then you figure out what a dog is worth - in dollars. This should be easy as they are bought and sold all the time. Then you can determine for yourself the worth between a dog and a human. Still you will be making generalizations as some dogs are worth more than others...Imagine comparing thoroughbred horses...WOW, just their sperm is worth tens of thousands!

Still even if you were go through this little exercise, you would not answer your own question. To you, your dog might be worth the heavens and the stars, I could care less if it was roadkill.



Edited, Feb 17th 2009 6:59pm by Elinda
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#59 Feb 17 2009 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
We have, however, recognized that just being a person gives you individual value and inherent rights, that you are not to be bought, sold, given or traded. We have outlawed ownership of human beings.


lol "inherent rights" We didn't -recognize- that humans have inherent rights. We invented them.

Just because we have not emancipated pets to a greater extent does not mean that we should not or can not. As for wearing or eating animals.. we shouldn't. Stop with this is/ought conflation sh*t.

Quote:
This is why I'm not having kids, though. I recognize my inherant unreality of putting my cat over potential future children, and simply decided not to have them rather than face a moral prickly pear patch.

Because I'm sorry, my cat comes first.


What would you pick if you had to decide between your cat and someone else's child? Would your answer change depending on how close you were to the child. I know how I'd react, but I'd like to see how other's would.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 12:59pm by Pensive
#60 Feb 17 2009 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
Elinda wrote:
What's really stupid is you trying to get normally rational people to make an irrational statement about the worth of an animal.


I'm doing that, am I? All I seem to be doing to me is asking people for the reasons behind their beliefs. That is not unreasonable or stupid.

Elinda wrote:
Slavery is ownership. If I own something, I get to place the value on it. We have, however, recognized that just being a person gives you individual value and inherent rights, that you are not to be bought, sold, given or traded. We have outlawed ownership of human beings.

We have NOT however emancipated the animal kingdom.


You keep talking about the way things are, not the rationale behind the way things are, which is what I am asking about. You are walking in circles, and it makes you look foolish. Let me help you. What is the reason you believe human life has inherent worth that puts it above slavery, and animal life does not?

Stop editing on me, Elinda.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:02pm by Kavekk
#61 Feb 17 2009 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Pensive wrote:
Quote:
We have, however, recognized that just being a person gives you individual value and inherent rights, that you are not to be bought, sold, given or traded. We have outlawed ownership of human beings.


lol "inherent rights" We didn't -recognize- that humans have inherent rights. We invented them.

Just because we have not emancipated pets to a greater extent does not mean that we should not or can not. As for wearing or eating animals.. we shouldn't. Stop with this is/ought conflation sh*t.
No, I refuse to let my Guinea Hens vote - they are uninformed and stupid as hell.

You are making a fallacious argument. We have not emancipated pets to any extent. We can't. It's not our place. We use them, exploit them, care about them, eat them, wear them, learn from them, enjoy them. Are you really saying that we should rule them all as well. Tiger tiger go to jail, you've caught a emu by the tail.

Animals are free to make their own way in this world.


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Alma wrote:
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#62 Feb 17 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
What would you pick if you had to decide between your cat and someone else's child? Would your answer change depending on how close you were to the child. I know how I'd react, but I'd like to see how other's would.


In the event I ended up with custody of either my niece, or my fiance's niece and nephew, I'd be safe. They're not allergic to cats and love my Weaverkitty to bits.

There are no other concieveable circumstances where I'd end up with custody of a child. My fiance is also childfree, so unless he dies and 10 years from now I fall in love with someone who already has kids . . . but then again, it's love me, love my cat, so if their kids were allergic, the relationship would end quickly.

My cat is my baby. When I adopted him, I agreed to take care of him for the rest of his life, and I won't go back on that promise.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:06pm by catwho
#63 Feb 17 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:

Stop editing on me, Elinda.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:02pm by Kavekk
Ive edited nothing.
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Alma wrote:
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#64 Feb 17 2009 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Hey Kavek,

How much gold is a kid worth?
I put my son into a specially designed tamper-resistant envelope and mailed him to Kids4Gold to find out.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#65 Feb 17 2009 at 10:10 AM Rating: Decent
Elinda wrote:
Kavekk wrote:

Stop editing on me, Elinda.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:02pm by Kavekk
Ive edited nothing.


Lol. You changed this:

Elinda wrote:
What's really stupid is you trying to get normally rational people to make an irrational statement about the worth of an animal.

Slavery is ownership. If I own something, I get to place the value on it. We have, however, recognized that just being a person gives you individual value and inherent rights, that you are not to be bought, sold, given or traded. We have outlawed ownership of human beings.

We have NOT however emancipated the animal kingdom.


To this:

Elinda wrote:
Hey Kavek,

How much gold is a kid worth? For that matter, how much money is any individual worth. The insurance biz has actuarial tables that you can use to equate the dollar worth of a human life. Then you figure out what a dog is worth - in dollars. This should be easy as they are bought and sold all the time. Then you can determine for yourself the worth between a dog and a human. Still you will be making generalizations as some dogs are worth more than others...Imagine comparing thoroughbred horses...WOW, just their sperm is worth tens of thousands!

Still even if you were go through this little exercise, you would not answer your own question. To you, your dog might be worth the heavens and the stars, I could care less if it was roadkill.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 6:59pm by Elinda


Why make such an obvious lie? Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to believe that I made up a post for you and then replied to it, especially given the edit at the bottom of the post.

Moron.
#66 Feb 17 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Hey Kavek,

How much gold is a kid worth?
I put my son into a specially designed tamper-resistant envelope and mailed him to Kids4Gold to find out.
He was broken or unwanted? Smiley: frown
#67 Feb 17 2009 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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I don't place any particularly special value on human life. There are over six billion humans, one or two less isn't anything to get too terrible upset over if you have no connection to them whatsoever. Now this doesn't mean that I advocate killing people for the hell of it, but if you have a good reason and are prepared to deal with the consequences, have at it.

As to the pets vs. humans deal, I'll go with an example. If someone were to place a gun in my hand, and then put my cat and some random twit I've never laid eyes on before in front of me, and I had to shoot one of them, I'd probably shoot the random twit. But if it were someone close to me, say one of the few members of my family that I can stand to be in the same room with, then I'd reluctantly shoot the cat. It's all about the value of that particularly relationship, not just human vs. animal.

Also, yes, I know how terrible this will sound to many of you.
#68 Feb 17 2009 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Hey Kavek,

How much gold is a kid worth?
I put my son into a specially designed tamper-resistant envelope and mailed him to Kids4Gold to find out.
He was broken or unwanted? Smiley: frown


Maybe he just needed a few extra bucks.
#69trickybeck, Posted: Feb 17 2009 at 10:15 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Actually, your first question was essentially, "What is the difference between the value of a human's life and an animal's?" Which implies that you were looking for a number. Much of the discussion has stemmed from this question, which led to Elinda's position of it being an irrational comparison.
#70 Feb 17 2009 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
trickybeck wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
You keep talking about the way things are, not the rationale behind the way things are, which is what I am asking about. You are walking in circles, and it makes you look foolish. Let me help you. What is the reason you believe human life has inherent worth that puts it above slavery, and animal life does not?

Stop editing on me, Elinda.

Actually, your first question was essentially, "What is the difference between the value of a human's life and an animal's?" Which implies that you were looking for a number. Much of the discussion has stemmed from this question, which led to Elinda's position of it being an irrational comparison.

The question you wanted to have asked was "Why is there a difference between the value of a human's life and an animal's?" Semantics are important in this case.

Moron.



Edited, Feb 17th 2009 12:17pm by trickybeck


Here is my original quote:

Quote:
What is this difference in value based on, in your view? I ask only out of curiosity.


Let me bold the important part for you.

Quote:
What is this difference in value based on, in your view? I ask only out of curiosity.


Understand? It'd be better for both of us if you never posted anything about me again. I'm so far above you in terms of intellect that you have no hope of ever "owning" me, so you might as well stop trying.
#71 Feb 17 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Kavekk wrote:

Stop editing on me, Elinda.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:02pm by Kavekk
Ive edited nothing.


Lol. You changed this:

Elinda wrote:
What's really stupid is you trying to get normally rational people to make an irrational statement about the worth of an animal.

Slavery is ownership. If I own something, I get to place the value on it. We have, however, recognized that just being a person gives you individual value and inherent rights, that you are not to be bought, sold, given or traded. We have outlawed ownership of human beings.

We have NOT however emancipated the animal kingdom.


To this:

Elinda wrote:
Hey Kavek,

How much gold is a kid worth? For that matter, how much money is any individual worth. The insurance biz has actuarial tables that you can use to equate the dollar worth of a human life. Then you figure out what a dog is worth - in dollars. This should be easy as they are bought and sold all the time. Then you can determine for yourself the worth between a dog and a human. Still you will be making generalizations as some dogs are worth more than others...Imagine comparing thoroughbred horses...WOW, just their sperm is worth tens of thousands!

Still even if you were go through this little exercise, you would not answer your own question. To you, your dog might be worth the heavens and the stars, I could care less if it was roadkill.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 6:59pm by Elinda


Why make such an obvious lie? Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to believe that I made up a post for you and then replied to it, especially given the edit at the bottom of the post.

Moron.
Well my apologies. I must have edited the old post instead of writing a new one as I had intended. You got both the messages though so I'm content.

It was an unintentional lie.

You're getting awfully worked up about this. Are you trying to marry your goat or something?
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#72 Feb 17 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
You're getting awfully worked up about this. Are you trying to marry your goat or something?


Why, that's about as lame as a ratebot.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#73 Feb 17 2009 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
What can I say, I'm just naturally predisposed to rage.
#74 Feb 17 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Default
Skelly Poker Since 2008
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16,781 posts
Kavekk wrote:

I'm so far above you in terms of intellect that you have no hope of ever "owning" me, so you might as well stop trying.
Prove it. (hint: the first clue to your obvious identity crisis is right there in the quote)
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Alma wrote:
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#75 Feb 17 2009 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Let me bold the important part for you.

Quote:
What is this difference in value based on, in your view? I ask only out of curiosity.


Understand? It'd be better for both of us if you never posted anything about me again. I'm so far above you in terms of intellect that you have no hope of ever "owning" me, so you might as well stop trying.

Sorry, had you confused with Ash, whose post was next to yours. I wonder if part of your awesome intellect can comprehend the difference between misreading and lack of understanding.

#76Elinda, Posted: Feb 17 2009 at 10:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sorry to hear about the goat thing. Most likely though, she didn't feel the same way about you.
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