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#27 Jan 16 2009 at 2:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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For some reason individuals like Gwyn conveniently ignore the 3000+ rockets fired into Israel that precipitated this low intensity conflict.


See, this is an example of the hypocrisy that the pro-Israeli/Anti-Palestine partisans display. That number, 3000, is between 2001 and 2009. 8 years, including a fully-fledged intifada. During that same time, Israel killed over 6000 Palestinians. Would you not send mortars to a country that had killed 6000 of your citizens?

So it's not "3000 rockets" that created this conflict. Hamas and Israel had a cease-fire agreement, which was more respected on Hamas' side than on the Israeli one. Israel had a complete embargo on Gaza, it had turned the place into a gigantic prison: it controlled all its borders, its airspace, its ports and waters. And during this Hamas did not fire a single rocket. And 0 progress was made.

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Yes, but that is to be expected when Hamas places their weapons near or inside civilian populated centers, schools, hospitals, and UN Relief Headquarters


********* Once again, look at what the Gaza strips look like. Everything is close to each other. Hamas "hiding behind kids" is a myth. It's propoganda to justify every Israel massacre of innocent civilian. They did exactly the same in everyone of their conflict in the past 30 years. Every civilian casualty, in Gaza, but also in the West Bank before, in Lebanon...

Take the UN school they bombed. That school was clearly marked as UN. Israel had its coordinate. After bombing it, Israel said it was because militants had been hiding in there. When that lie turned out to be found, they said it was becaue militants were "near it". We could have inpendent members of the media confirm or deny this, ecept that oops, Israel has prevented any media person from entering Gaza. Wonder why...

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Stop the rocket attacks, suicide bombings, be a peaceful neighbor and I'll a dollar to a donut that Israel opens up those checkpoints, encourages free trade, and helps Palestine onto its' feet.


Once again, ********* What about the West Bank? No mortar, no suicide-bombs, a moderate govenment, and... they still don't get anything. Illegal settlements continue to be built on their land everyday. The Wall is still being built, and eating more land with each new additional segment. Is that never reported in the US media?

Remeber when the time before Hamas? When the West Bank and Gaza were all united under Fatah? Did anything happened then? No, Israel and the US marginalised Fatah, just like they had marginalised Arafat before. When the Palestinians had unity, nothing happened. And now they're being told, and you're repeating this crap, that they need unity.

The goalpost are constantly being moved. It's a joke.

This story is not about Hamas having fired some rockets since the fire and then getting punished for it. If this is the narrative you have bought, you either have an extremely poor memory, or you're completely uninformed as to the history of the region.

What's going on right now is indiscriminate murder and war crimes, and we're clapping on the sidelines. All the blood shed will be remembered by the res of the world. And you know what's funny? They'll justify their violence with the exact same rethoric that people who support Israel are using now: "We're being attacked, so fighting back". "Every target is legitimate, since they elected their war-mongering government". "Stop the occupation and we'll stop the violence".

One day, you'll have to realise that war-mongers on both sides are exactly the same. That if gbaji had been born in the strip, he would be a hardcore Hamas supporter. That this logic that you use to justify the murder of 500 women and children in 2 weeks will be used against you one day, in exactly the same way.
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#28 Jan 16 2009 at 2:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Israel should probably cut back on the use of white phosphorus in heavily populated areas though.

Which constitutes like, all of Gaza, but still.

That shits whack, yo.

Especially when done to UN Buildings. Smiley: oyvey
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#29 Jan 16 2009 at 2:54 AM Rating: Excellent
And on the use of civilians as a "human shield" by Hamas, here's an intresting article by a prominent Israeli pacifist, from the 12 Jan 2009:

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NEARLY SEVENTY YEARS ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.


Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.

Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as “hostages” and exploit the women and children as “human shields”, they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.

IN THIS WAR, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army - with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery and tanks - and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.

Almost all the Western media initially repeated the official Israeli propaganda line. They almost entirely ignored the Palestinian side of the story, not to mention the daily demonstrations of the Israeli peace camp. The rationale of the Israeli government (“The state must defend its citizens against the Qassam rockets”) has been accepted as the whole truth. The view from the other side, that the Qassams are a retaliation for the siege that starves the one and a half million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, was not mentioned at all.

Only when the horrible scenes from Gaza started to appear on Western TV screens, did world public opinion gradually begin to change.

True, Western and Israeli TV channels showed only a tiny fraction of the dreadful events that appear 24 hours every day on Aljazeera’s Arabic channel, but one picture of a dead baby in the arms of its terrified father is more powerful than a thousand elegantly constructed sentences from the Israeli army spokesman. And that is what is decisive, in the end.

War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one’s country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.

The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.

An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.

Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army “revealed” that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.

Later the official liar claimed that “our soldiers were shot at from inside the school”. Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.

But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that “they shot from inside the school”, and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.

So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a “symbol of Hamas rule”. Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the “most moral army in the world”.
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#30 Jan 16 2009 at 5:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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You'll have to excuse me if I'm a touch skeptical of someone who finds it necessary to use the term "the official army liar" repeatedly in an article about biased information & reporting Smiley: dubious
Article wrote:
As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.
Just to be clear then, although the photo used wasn't appropriate to the airstrike that took place, it was indeed a photo of Hamas using schools as a firing base for rockets -- albeit it one from 07-08? I mean, there's no argument then that this whole "using peace-oriented civilian infrastructure as launching points for attacks" thing has occurred?

Edited, Jan 16th 2009 7:12am by Jophiel
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#31 Jan 16 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
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All war is a crime. No-one expects the Israeli military to be divine messengers delivering the Palestinian people from the oppressive Hamas regime. Israel invaded because, frankly, Israel has had the Palestinian territories by the ******* for several decades now, and they could have invaded literally whenever they wanted. And Obama won't be able to stop them. He's not going to pull a Bush and be felled by a phone call from Mr. Olmert, but there's nothing he can really do to stop Israel.

I mean, we can't reasonably expect Obama to bring peace to the Middle East by snapping his fingers. And we can't blame him if his administration allows Israel to continue. For all of the bullcrap he shrouds it in, Totem has a point. Obama cannot - nor is he required to - do anything about the Israeli invasion. It would hurt America, it would hurt Israel, and it wouldn't solve Palestine's long-term problems.

Jophiel wrote:
Just to be clear then, although the photo used wasn't appropriate to the airstrike that took place, it was indeed a photo of Hamas using schools as a firing base for rockets -- albeit it one from 07-08? I mean, there's no argument then that this whole "using peace-oriented civilian infrastructure as launching points for attacks" thing has occurred?


Yes, but that obviously doesn't excuse Israel from having bombed the school. It was unforgivably sloppy on their part.

"Sloppy" doesn't feel quite strong enough, but it says what I basically mean.

Edited, Jan 16th 2009 8:22am by zepoodle
#32 Jan 16 2009 at 5:26 AM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
You'll have to excuse me if I'm a touch skeptical of someone who finds it necessary to use the term "the official army liar" repeatedly in an article about biased information & reporting Smiley: dubious
Article wrote:
As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.
Just to be clear then, although the photo used wasn't appropriate to the airstrike that took place, it was indeed a photo of Hamas using schools as a firing base for rockets


No, it was a photo of the school, with a mortar next to it. It might've been transported there. It might've been used. It might not. I don't know, and not many people do. All this seems a lot less relevant than the actual fact that they bombed a school, and then told the usual lie about it, no?

What I linked wasn't "proof", just the other side of a debate we rarely here or in the US, from an Israeli. Same with the UN building they just bombed. Same with all the detruction they brought to Lebanon 2 years ago, all the civilians they killed, and all this so that Hezbollah could become even more entrenched in Lebanese politics.
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#33 Jan 16 2009 at 5:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Gbaji wrote:
Sure. The global community will embrace us with open arms and trade with us! Yippeee! Just sell your soul here. It's a small price, right?


So you're against Capitalism & Free Trade?

Hippy.
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#34 Jan 16 2009 at 6:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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zepoodle wrote:
Yes, but that obviously doesn't excuse Israel from having bombed the school. It was unforgivably sloppy on their part.
Sure, I'll give you that. On the other hand, if they know from past experience that Hamas does use these sorts of structures to launch attacks from then there's a legitimate reason to look at the school as a potential target. Maybe they bombed it with bad intelligence. Maybe it was formerly good intelligence but the guys left an hour ago, rendering it outdated. Maybe they were attacking somewhere else and missed. Maybe attacks were made form the area and, knowing the school had been used before, someone in charge said "Hit that school, the attacks are probably coming from there." I'm not excusing the cover-up and spin after the fact, I'm just saying that there's more justification to even an erroneous attack than "They're just bombing schools and lying about it".

I only found it interesting because in the original thread on the topic, I had people saying that this never happened or that Hamas was forced to be in civilian quarters due to the size of the urban area, etc. But, apparently, they actually have used civilian schools as launching points for attacks and if people aren't giving them the benefit of the doubt now, that's regrettable (for the civilians) but understandable.

I know nothing at all about the specific event described in the column except for what's told within. I don't even know if the IDF's story was debunked or not except that he says it was (I'll assume it was for the sake of argument). But he doesn't seem to cast doubt on the validity of the photo, just its application as a defense for the most recent airstrike.
RP wrote:
What I linked wasn't "proof", just the other side of a debate we rarely here or in the US, from an Israeli.
Yeah, I know. I'm just skeptical of the author himself and I'll admit it's entirely due to his language which seems more fitting for a random blogger on Daily Kos than for someone attempting journalism.
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#35 Jan 16 2009 at 6:17 AM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
But he doesn't seem to cast doubt on the validity of the photo, just its application as a defense for the most recent airstrike


Well, what he tries to do, and he's by no means the only one, is to show that there is a pattern whereby every Israeli attack on civilians is justified by saying it was used as a "launching pad/ammunition depot/terrorist barracks". And that, in cases where independent verification was possible, it turned out to be a lie.

What I find undeniable is that the Israeli government does use the same knee-jerk response each time of "Hamas/Hezbullah" was hiding behind civilians whenever it strikes an illegitimate target.

What is also undeniable is the fact that UK/US media are very quick to publish these justifications in bold letters, without doing any background investigative work. And, if those justifications turn out to be a complete lie, they either don't mention it, or publish it on page 37 in small print.

In fairness, it's not justthe Israelis that do it. Like the guy says, every nation uses propaganda in times of war. All I'm saying is, let's recognise this fact. Let's not pretend that every time a civilian structure gets hit, it's because Hamas were firing rockets from it. Let's not pretend that evey civilian casualty is because some mystical Hamas fighter was hiding behind it. We should be too clever and informed to fall for this repetitive and pathetic bullcrap from the military's propaganda machine.
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#36 Jan 16 2009 at 6:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
And that, in cases where independent verification was possible, it turned out to be a lie.
In every case? This goes back to my skepticism given that it's really easy to cherry-pick your sources.

The IDF has a collection of videos supporting the whole "Weapon caches in mosques" thing and stuff like it. Maybe they're all faked. I'm not qualified to say.
RP wrote:
Let's not pretend that every time a civilian structure gets hit, it's because Hamas were firing rockets from it. Let's not pretend that evey civilian casualty is because some mystical Hamas fighter was hiding behind it.
Sure, of course. And whether he intended it or not, his use of the photo as evidence supports the potential for legitimate airstrikes on what we consider the most "peaceful" civilian structures (schools, libraries, religious structures, etc). Not that every airstrike will be appropriate but neither should any airstrike on a school, et al be immediately condemned.

Edited, Jan 16th 2009 9:01am by Jophiel
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#37 Jan 16 2009 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Well, what he tries to do, and he's by no means the only one, is to show that there is a pattern whereby every Israeli attack on civilians is justified by saying it was used as a "launching pad/ammunition depot/terrorist barracks". And that, in cases where independent verification was possible, it turned out to be a lie.

What I find undeniable is that the Israeli government does use the same knee-jerk response each time of "Hamas/Hezbullah" was hiding behind civilians whenever it strikes an illegitimate target.


Well, ****. They're not exactly going to announce that they accidentally killed some women and children for no reason because an artillery commander was overeager and had bad intel. And the Western media isn't exactly going to condemn them for it, because Israel has strong ties to the West and you don't drop your friends into the ****, even when you know your friends did something wrong.

If it's any consolation, the Australian newspapers are pretty critical of the offensive, so it's not a universal bias.
#38 Jan 16 2009 at 7:24 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
RedPhoenixxx wrote:
And that, in cases where independent verification was possible, it turned out to be a lie.
In every case? This goes back to my skepticism given that it's really easy to cherry-pick your sources.


Probably not in every case, but in a suprisingly large number of cases. And actually, it's not that surprising either, since that's part of warfare. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that, fundamentally, the military's press officer is a good-hearted impartial observer that tries to search for some objective truth. His job is to justify the military's action, whatever the truth may be. And sicne Israel has prevented any foreign journalist from entering Gaza, every bit of news we get is from Israel's military. Which gets reported as "news".

It's not. If it's not being factually checked, it's parrotting at best, and disinformation at worst.


Quote:
And whether he intended it or not, his use of the photo as evidence supports the potential for legitimate airstrikes on what we consider the most "peaceful" civilian structures (schools, libraries, religious structures, etc).


No, it's proof of dishonesty. The fact that a mortar and a school were in the same picture proves absolutely nothing. Does it prove the school was used as a ground for attack? Does it prove that Hamas use civlians as shields? No, it all proves is that a mortar was, at some point in time, close enough to the school that both could be pictured together. And... that's about it.

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Not that every airstrike will be appropriate but neither should any airstrike on a school, et al be immediately condemned.


If there are civilians inside, of course it should. It should be extremely heavily condemned. Afterwards, if there any extraordinary reasons why this school was a legitmate target, it should be up to the offender to prove it. By using real intel, not some one-year old picture. And journalist should investigate, before they print this crap as "news".

All this goes back to Totem saying the killings were justified because Hamas was hiding civilians. Clearly, this is a prime example of Israel's propganda working. Every civilian killing instantly gets dismissed as "legitimate because there probably was some terrorist hiding behind it." Great. And you know what, it's understandable. It's hard for any human to look at this killing and destruction and not feel repelled by it. The only way to immune yourself from it is to de-humanise the victims. By calling them "terrorrists". By implying it's their own fault. Otherwise, if you see this for what it is, ie a large civilian population getting trapped and murdered on a gigantic scale, it makes the whole thing a bit harder to digest.


Edited, Jan 16th 2009 3:24pm by RedPhoenixxx
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#39 Jan 16 2009 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hamas is not pure by any means, but Red's point that the media coverage here could best be described as one-sided is well taken.

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#40 Jan 16 2009 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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I couldn't have said it any better, Jo.

As to the contention that the peace must begin somewhere, let's work with some assumptions: Israel, as a recognised nation, has the most to lose by initiating hostilities. It is not in their best interest to foment violence or strife since it is a drain on their resources, populace, and will. Therefore, unless there are specific contingencies where preemptive strikes would achieve political goals, military action does not produce results that move Israel's agenda forward.

Second assumption: As long as a militant Palestine exists, it is in Israel's best interests to keep the Palestinian government, populace, and military weak.

Third assumption: It is in the best interests of particular entities in Palestine to encourage strife and violence between the two countries, especially from a political standpoint as a proxy for other nations not directly in conflict with Israel.

Fourth assumption: If peace is attained between Irael and Palestine, various nations around the Middle East would lose political traction at home, thus weakening their own political power base due to attention being paid to internal issues.

So, in light of these basic assumptions, who must initiate the end of hostilities? Obviously militant Palestinians are in control of their own destinies in that peace cannot occur until they take command of their own agenda and look to the Palestinian's best interests, not some Iranian or Syrian handler. But until that happens, war will continue to break out on a semi-regular basis.

Totem
#41 Jan 16 2009 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Totem wrote:
let's work with some assumptions: Israel, as a recognised nation, has the most to lose by initiating hostilities. It is not in their best interest to foment violence or strife since it is a drain on their resources, populace, and will. Therefore, unless there are specific contingencies where preemptive strikes would achieve political goals, military action does not produce results that move Israel's agenda forward.


False. Israel has an election in February. Its current government (Kadima) is doing badly in the polls, while the hard-right of Likud was doing very well. In order to not appear weak and ineffectual, it had to do something "ballsy" about the rockets from Gaza. You cannot understand the situation if you don't have a basic grasp of what is happening in Israeli domestic politics.

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Second assumption: As long as a militant Palestine exists, it is in Israel's best interests to keep the Palestinian government, populace, and military weak.


Directly contradicts the first assumption. If it is in Israel's interest to have a weak Palestine, then assumption 1 is invalid.

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Third assumption: It is in the best interests of particular entities in Palestine to encourage strife and violence between the two countries, especially from a political standpoint as a proxy for other nations not directly in conflict with Israel.


Arguable. You could also argue it is not in their best interests to be killed. I doubt this turn of event is something Hamas actively wanted.

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Fourth assumption: If peace is attained between Irael and Palestine, various nations around the Middle East would lose political traction at home, thus weakening their own political power base due to attention being paid to internal issues.


Arguable. In many of these countries "attention" is paid to whereever attention is being told to be paid. Most of these countries don't even have a free press, so if it wasn't Israel/Palestine, it would be something else.

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So, in light of these basic assumptions, who must initiate the end of hostilities?


Clearly Israel. Israel has all the tools to end the hostilities, the Palestinians have none. Israel have all the tools to create a peace process, Palestine has none.

If it's all the fault of Hamas/Iran/Syria, please explain what's going on in the West Bank. Please explain why, for decades, the Palestinian Authority, Arafat, or Abbas were continously excluded and sidelined by Israel and the US. If all it takes for peace is for Palestinian unity, then why did nothing happen when Palestine was united. Why the West Bank is still being actively and illegally colonised today.

I'm all ears.
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#42 Jan 16 2009 at 8:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
All this goes back to Totem saying the killings were justified because Hamas was hiding civilians.
Hiding within civilian populations, yes. I linked to the military videos of weapon caches being shown in mosques, of explosive rigged schools and zoos, of rocket launches actively occuring from outside a school. I don't think there's really a reasonable question of whether or not Hamas is intentionally using structures that, when attacked, allows for the maximum amount of hand-wringing and wailing that someone dared bomb a school or mosque.

It's, as you said, pure propaganda. Just as the IDF is justifying its attacks in the best possible light for it, Hamas is doing their best to get the IDF to attack these structures just so the world can go "Those evil Israelis bombed a school! And for no reason at all!"

However, given that Hamas does use these structures, it's completely reasonable that they'd become targets. Again, it sucks for everyone else but there's no "Time out zone" on a battleground -- especially not when one side intentionally perverts the purpose of the buildings.

Edited, Jan 16th 2009 10:32am by Jophiel
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#43 Jan 16 2009 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
However, given that Hamas does use these structures, it's completely reasonable that they'd become targets. Again, it sucks for everyone else but there's no "Time out zone" on a battleground -- especially not when one side intentionally perverts the purpose of the buildings.


Or when one side prevents the civilians from fleeing the places they are about to attack. Or when the place they attack is one of the most densely populated urban areas on the planet, and therefore doesn't have space for "military zones".

We can go round and round in circles. I'm happy to admit that Hamas uses some "civilian" infrastructure to hide weapons. I don't doubt that Israel sometimes strikes a Mosque because of good intell, and rightly so.

But you have to admit all the news we get from this conflict comes from the Israeli army. That their claims of "Hamas using civilian infrastructure" is often found to be false. And that the burden of proof is on the Israeli government to show that a clearly marked UN school, or a UN refugee building which Israel has the GPS coordinates to because it was given to them by the UN, was indeed used by militants at the time of bombing.

In the meantime, condemnation is indeed in order. They bombed a UN school, with 40 civilians dead as a result and scores more injured, and then purposely lied about it. They bombed hospitals. They bombed a UN refugee camp. They are breaking a nut with a sledghammer, if the nut in question had tiny children and women living inside it.
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#44 Jan 16 2009 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
Israel, as a recognised nation, has the most to lose by initiating hostilities. It is not in their best interest to foment violence or strife since it is a drain on their resources, populace, and will. Therefore, unless there are specific contingencies where preemptive strikes would achieve political goals, military action does not produce results that move Israel's agenda forward.


While this is broadly true, this attack is mainly prompted by Olmert's desire to look tough in preparation for the February elections. It's as much a PR campaign as an anti-terrorist action. Israel's intent is probably to go in, blow some stuff up, leave a mark, and pull out. They certainly don't intend to hold onto Gaza. That's a nightmare.

Politically, this is about shock and awe. It keeps Palestine weak, makes Israel look strong, and lets Olmert show his voters that he won't tolerate the homemade artillery rockets landing in their back yards.

also, your first and second assumptions do seem to contradict each other, and the third and fourth are debatable. It's definitely not in Hamas' best interests to provoke Israel, it's just that Hamas is full of crazy ******** Also, I don't think peace with Israel and Palestine would weaken surrounding Arab nations, unless you're talking specifically of hurting the support they gain from internal factions dedicated to war with Israel, in which case, **** them; those guys are nuts.
#45 Jan 16 2009 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Redd, you didn't read what I said. Israel has the most to lose because it is a recognised nation. You cannot censure Palestine because it is not a formally recognised nation-state, particularly since the government is divided into two factions who both claim legitimacy.

Secondly, I specifically-- and italicized -- the word militant. If Palestine were pacifist in nature and policy, it'd be entirely on Israel's shoulders to maintain the peace. Let me say that again: Entirely. Israel would be morally, economically, and diplomatically forced to open the borders, and indeed, would be pressured by her biggest ally, the United States to do so, even at the expense of financial and military aid, and diplomatic backing.

Furthermore, it'd be in Israel's best interests since its' labor source is largely Palestinian and is a enormous market who lives directly next door.

You are so deeply invested in seeing this conflict from Palestine's side that you cannot impartially judge that Israel does, in the long run, have far more to lose than a group of people who haven't had anything to claim as their own for centuries. After all, you can't lose what you never had. Israel, on the other hand, has everything to lose since the mid 20th century.

Do you understand what I am trying to say?

Totem

Edited, Jan 16th 2009 12:27pm by Totem
#46 Jan 16 2009 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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What red said Smiley: nod
#47 Jan 16 2009 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
I'm happy to admit that Hamas uses some "civilian" infrastructure to hide weapons. I don't doubt that Israel sometimes strikes a Mosque because of good intell, and rightly so.
Now we're gettin' somewhere! Smiley: laugh
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But you have to admit all the news we get from this conflict comes from the Israeli army.
Sure. I'll even happily admit that when they fuck something up, they're more likely to invent a reason why it wasn't a fuck-up than to say "Yeah, we thought you had a bunch of Hamas rockets in your closet. Whoops."
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That their claims of "Hamas using civilian infrastructure" is often found to be false.
I'm not ready to admit to this without significantly more information. and from more unbiased sources than "Israeli Army Liar!"-Guy
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And that the burden of proof is on the Israeli government to show that a clearly marked UN school, or a UN refugee building which Israel has the GPS coordinates to because it was given to them by the UN, was indeed used by militants at the time of bombing.
I'm willing to take it on a case by case basis. But, as I said, mistakes get made. If Israel bombs a particular building because they had reason to believe that it was a building that needed blowing up then, if it turns out they were wrong (their source lied, the bad guys just left 15min earlier, etc), it was a mistake. Which certainly isn't a good thing but it's far different from accusations being made that the IDF is blowing up hospitals and schools and teddybear factories just because they're bloodthirsty jerks.
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They bombed a UN school
Once again, and not to keep treading old ground, but if Hamas wasn't using schools as places to attack from (and not "Oh no, they have nowhere else to hide their rockets but in the basement of gradeschools!") then the IDF would be a lot less likely to view schools as targets where Hamas might, you know, be launching rockets from and storing weapons in.

We're probably about as close to a middle ground here as we're likely to get Smiley: wink2

Edited, Jan 16th 2009 11:38am by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#48 Jan 16 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
We're probably about as close to a middle ground here as we're likely to get Smiley: wink2


I suppose, and it's not close enough for my liking, but c'est la vie.

I still think if this situation was reversed, if the nation doing the bullying was Muslim and the people getting killed were white, our whole "Western" take on this would be very different. The standards we apply to Israel are not the standards we'd apply to another countries.

I'll answer Totem's post later, as I'm running late for yoga. But I've got stuff to say about that as well Smiley: tongue



Edited, Jan 16th 2009 5:52pm by RedPhoenixxx
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My politics blog and stuff - Refractory
#49 Jan 16 2009 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
We're probably about as close to a middle ground here as we're likely to get Smiley: wink2
I suppose, and it's not close enough for my liking, but c'est la vie.
There's still a chance you'll come around.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#50 Jan 16 2009 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
Skelly Poker Since 2008
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16,781 posts
RedPhoenixxx wrote:


I still think if this situation was reversed, if the nation doing the bullying was Muslim and the people getting killed were white, our whole "Western" take on this would be very different. The standards we apply to Israel are not the standards we'd apply to another countries.


Smiley: nod

...and if we weren't all so dam comfortable with the notion that we can truly judge peoples intentions as being good or evil from biased media reports generated in foreign lands on the other side of the globe, deciphered, translated, spun and conveniently reported in a newspaper or web-site near you.


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Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#51 Jan 16 2009 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
...and if we weren't all so dam comfortable with the notion that we can truly judge peoples intentions as being good or evil from biased media reports generated in foreign lands on the other side of the globe, deciphered, translated, spun and conveniently reported in a newspaper or web-site near you.
My flight insurance doesn't cover trips to Israel/Palestine so what sources do you have that're better?

I certainly hope you apply this both ways and have no nasty thoughts about what Israel is doing.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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