israel / hamasFollow

It's okay -- we've done this before and you and I always take the same tack so I'm not going to waste too much time on this. In fact, I bet if I bother to respond in any depth, you'll eventually claim it's all Holocaust guilt that makes me think the way I do. That one's always a stinger.

On the plus side, you always take the "Who cares if it was a baby or a 99 year old man?" so at least I won't hear "OMG THEY MURDERED BABIES!!!!" from ya. The flip side to which is that there's no immorality to air strikes. Unless you deny that Hamas & Israel are at war. I think either side would disagree with you.

Again, we've been through it. If the last 4+ years hasn't changed opinions, you calling me naive won't today. If you have something new to say, Lemme know You know, and I suppose both sides are guilty of this, but I haven't heard a single person railing against Israel yet admit any culpability from the people in Gaza when they elect a bunch of radicals and the radicals do exactly what radicals do and draw them into the middle of it. I've heard a dozen excuses about how it's not at all their fault but not a single person say "Yeah, they made a real ****** decision there". Hell, I'm sure each one of them had a reason for voting how they voted. The end result was empowering Hamas.Wait... are you denying that Hamas is intentionally using civilian structures we normally identify with peaceful missions (schools, civilian housing, mosques etc) as firing bases? Or weapon stores?

If Hamas can take over every government building in Gaza, if they can use mosques and schools for military purposes, they certainly can set aside areas as dedicated for military operations, right? They don't because they don't want that target, they want to hide behind civilians in hopes that responses to their attacks are greatly muted to avoid civilian deaths. You might think it's an understandable plan but it doesn't take away from the fact that Hamas is hiding within the civilian population and using them as shields.Yes, exactly

I did three times, I made it especially clear after you asked me directly.

For the record, for the record, for the record, there has not been ONE single post or poster that is in support of Hamas, so quit trying to use that as your argument. You simply refuse to condemn Israel while most people with an objective mind condemn both sides.

Here is a video of what an Israeli air strike on innocent civilians actually looks like. Lets pretend that is your child lying in the street blown in half.

*Warning Graphic Video
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

If you have something new to say, Lemme know

You bet. I'm sure if we wait long enough, reality will come around to your point of view. Christ returning to Earth will likely be a big help towards lasting peace.

If you have any further in depth analysis of a region you've never set foot in, know nothing about, and have zero vested interest in, please continue to share it. I think I speak for all of us when I say that your fascinating insights into the complexities of the situation on the ground in Gaza have enriched us all. I, for one, would have never considered the fact a nation state might not enjoy having rockets fired at it's citizens.

I'm sure you'll disagree, but it's really not that I don't respect your opinion here. It's just incredibly difficult and vexing to me when you occasionally make a post about a subject where you have this blatant gigantic self imposed blind spot. You're normally a very rational guy, but on occasion, and I'm sure I'm guilty of the same, you don't even try. You just hand waive everything away and become, forgive me, Gbaji. I just don't understand why. When I'm guilty of the same, I normally understand why. I'm not sure you share that sort of self awareness here.

What is it about this situation that makes you simply not care about information and instead rely on cliche and propaganda? Did a Palestinian cab driver stab your grandmother or something? No rational person who holds the worldview you espouse here comes to the conclusions you do regarding this. Where's the breakdown? Do I have your worldview wrong? Is it that this is not an exception at all and you secretly harbor other bizarre seemingly contrary views? Are you pro abortion clinic bombing, or in favor torture or the like?

It's the cognitive dissonance that bothers me. To paraphrase something I've posted to Gbaji more than once; there's a legitimate defense of the Israeli position that can be argued here. You aren't arguing it. You're arguing an imaginary position based upon an imaginary set of stipulations that just don't exist.

Why??

Time to play Devil's advocate:



Surely you could argue that which party controls the Knesset is important in improving the lives of Israelis? If someone is willing to attack Palestine to increase the political influence of their party they could very well believe that their party having greater power would benefit Israel.

**** & vinegar, mainly. I was responding to Soulshaver's "The Israelis are all bloodthirsty baby murderers!" stance in kind.

Oh that would explain it. It wasn't fair of me to form an opinion of your posts without considering the context in which they were made. I'll try to work on that.

:)

I was not comparing the two like that. I was simply comparing bad election choices and the fallouts from them. There is a price to pay for Hamas being in power. America paid a price voting for Bush. Both were bad decisions globally and your own interests.
You seemed to be making judgements from a glass house is all

Seems Israel made some bad choices too ..



Edited, Jan 4th 2009 12:56pm by GwynapNud

Because they are on the "same side" no? They don't launch rockets from schoolyards because they have the superior military resources. Guerrilla warfare is typically used by the those without those assets.
- - -

The issue here, as Smash has said is not whether Israel is justified in launching rockets which frankly does not matter in war since it will just about always be the case, but whether positive consequences will result from this method of diplomacy.

I'm not saying that I'm surprised nor am I doubting the justification for Israel's actions, but it doesn't make it any more productive.

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 3:04pm by Timelordwho

Smash said:






I'm feeling all moist for you at the moment!

If that's where the discussion is headed, then no. I don't think that bombing and invading Gaza is going to solve Israel's problems. The entire operation is two parts publicity stunt to one part counter-terrorism. They're doing it to "unseat" Hamas, however logistically unlikely that is, and to let the rest of the Arab world know that they're still going strong. Israel is justified in wanting to defend itself, but I can't describe this invasion as anything other than excessive.

Couple things;



While Hamas certainly builds military outposts near civilian areas, the view that they literally fire rockets from schools and hospitals is being discredited as an exaggeration. Gaza is a densely populated area, and Hamas builds infrastructure near population centres as a matter of logistics. Israel targets the infrastructure and because in the real world missile payloads aren't tailor-made to destroy exactly as much as would be morally suitable, civilians get caught in the blast radius. This just seems more convincing than the idea of Hamas operating out of people's back yards. Saying Hamas is using Palestinian civilians as body shield is, if anything, a severe over-simplification.



Israel - this is unarguable - has been, since its creation, under siege, both literally and metaphorically. If you were to make any argument about protecting "home soil", it should concern the significant percentage of Israelis who are Arab Jews and have been living in the Middle East for generations before they had a state called Israel. The problem with Israel and the Palestinian territories is not whether one side is justified in protecting their spurious "home soil". The home soil itself is contested territory.

Also, the West Bank is not currently under siege. The Gaza strip is. The West Bank is on the other side of Israel.



I'm really getting sick of you. That's a video of a homemade Hamas weapon malfunctioning during a street parade in 2005 and killing Palestinian civilians. It looks nothing like a goddamn air strike. If anything, that video is an argument that a disorganised resistance is more harmful to the civilian population than no resistance.

Anyway, the machine has to be put in for repairs, so unless you're still talking about this in three or four days, that's all I've got left to say.

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 6:30pm by zepoodle

Sorry Nobby after all these years off seeing people making the same excuses as to why it's ok for people like Hamas to somehow have the moral high ground when they always start the conflicts, it's time to Hamas and the people who elect them to put up or shut up, either they stop bombing Israel or they stand by to get the sh*t blown out of them, it's not like they didn't have an option at least fourty or fifty times before.

This entire problem can be laid firmly at the feet of the very people crying foul play.

My final comment on the subject: Did anyone of on either side of the arguement not expect this too happen when Hamas where elected? On the day Hamas where elected did everyone not sit back and think... Hmmm probably going to be some attacks on Israel soon and the Gaza strip is going to turn into a warzone as a result of that election result.

Did anyone of on either side of the arguement not expect this too happen when Hamas where elected?

Israel to overreact and use force to subjugate the democratic process with the full backing of the US? No, I think everyone expected it.

I'm gonna make an assumption here, and I hope it's not totally wrong, but IF Gaza (the city) is anything like Rafah or Khan-Yunis then you are quite wrong.
I personally saw armed people run around civilian buildings, I also had 2 friends killed by a sniper that shot from a window of a building when we went in to retrieve some corpses that wouldn't be returned, also, all mortar fire that was directed at us at the time was fired from inside the villages/cities we were near, my experience was abit more than 3 years ago.

If now is anything like then they ARE shooting from backyards of civilian buildings. And it's not logistics they have in mind, the shells and rockets are mostly fired from north Gaza (because they are closer to "better" targets) and not from the southern part, Raph'iah, where most tunnels are found.

I'm not trying to justify/condemn any side (though I'm sure my post IS biased, but I can't really help it), just to give another point of view on the subject, or to be more exact, to shed new light on arguments thrown.

Have a nice day,
Yuval.

True enough.