israel / hamasFollow

In the same way that bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was a valid way to end the war with Japan, yes. War comes with a heavy price, often heaviest for those who initiate it.

The thing is, it's less defensible than any of these, as Palestine, simply put, is not much of a threat to Israel.



What are you talking about? Israel has made no attempt to topple Hamas - this is not about Hamas, in the main, but the people launching rockets, who are a small minority. It is them Israel is trying to deal with by rocket attack (although I am unconvinced it is not politically motivated).

Edited, Jan 4th 2009 1:07am by Kavekk

Because something is one way, that is the morally correct way to do things? I see. Nice argument, really.

P.S. It's horribly naive to call anyone a TERRORIST when supporting the actions of Truman, who murdered civilians to force acquiescence. Both are doing exactly the same thing.

I didn't say it was good. I didn't even say that I liked it. It's just the way it works.

I was quite obviously aware that that is the way it has worked in the past, though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up.

You don't have to be part of the military wing of Hamas to make explosives, Jophiel.

There was absolutely no point. It was agreeing with you by saying that it was Hamas launching rockets and if people other than Hamas blow people up, Hamas is all for that.

Yes, but Israel is not TRYING to deal with the government as a whole through these air strikes, they are only trying to stop the few nutcases actually doing it.

*Shrug* -- It contained direct quotes from Israeli government officials saying that Hamas had to be removed. The rest of it wasn't particularly relevant to my point.

I'm sorry, but again you provide nothing helpful. If there was a simple solution it would have been done by now.

On the same notion, there MUST be a solution to the energy problem of the world that is cheap, clean, safe and reliable, right?
Wierd analogy, I know, but being a scientist (rather than politian) at heart this was the first thing I thought about.

Anyway, saying there ARE other options is too vague in my opinion.



P.S. Elinda, can you clarify this for me? I failed to understand what it was you were saying.



You think evacuating such a large amount of the population, WHILE the police and military are very busy is doable? Or am I missreading your intent?

Have a nice day,
Yuval.

If that makes me some tool of the "military-industrial complex"

It doesn't. It does make you an ignorant American sucker who can't be bothered to educate himself about the entire situation. Hell, why bother, when you can just throw up your hands and say people deserve to die if they vote people into power who do stupid things.

I guess you deserved to lose civil liberties the last eight years. What's that you didn't vote for the people in power? Well, I'm sure the IDF bombs discriminate and don't kill Fatah voters, right?

It's rare to see you take such an unuanced and, frankly, childlike position on international events. What is it you think is really occurring here? The rest of the world really just secretly hates Jews and that's why then condemn the intentional creation of a humanitarian nightmare for no particular reason, or that the US is ludicrously partisan in media coverage and policy here?

Grow up. There's no "morality" in war, you're not that naive. If suicide bombers had been the only way to win WW2, we'd be watching movies about what noble heroes they were, deriding the cold heartless actions of those who attacked from a distance.

Israel kills Palestinians because they can, period. Because it sells and wins votes. That's the entire reason for this action. They know it won't stop the rocket attacks. They know it won't slow the flow of arms. They know where the rockets come from, EVERYONE knows where the rockets come from. Just like EVERYONE knows where the IDF jets come from and where the bombs that fall on Palestinian children come from. Without the constant backing of the US, Israel ceases to exist. In the Arab world, this is a US proxy war. If you thought Iraq was a recruiting poster for anti-American Islamic groups, this is a million dollar signing bonus.

You don't care about that, though, right? That doesn't matter, Israel has a right to "defend itself" from terrible rocket attacks that have killed or injured 1/1000th as many as have died from Israel's periodic military actions. Who cares how many Palestinians die, though, right? That's what they get for voting for Hamas. You don't care that Palestinians have very legitimate claims to self determination, because, hell, they use the tactics of the poor and outnumbered. That's an absolute, right? If you use suicide bombers as a tactic you're evil and the mass slaughter of people in the same geographic area is justified. By God, I suppose. You don't care that it's an incredibly complex situation, because that would be difficult to hold an opinion on. After all, the great White Father declared that area of land the Jewish Homeland, right? I mean what's all the fuss about?

It doesn't matter how many times Israel has destroyed civil infrastructure for no reason other than to explicitly punish the civilian population by starvation and disease. OMG, they use suicide bombers!!! Anything is justified. It doesn't matter that Israel actively sends Jewish settlers into Palestinian areas to provoke violence. Because they use suicide bombers!!! It's irrelevant that primary reason so many rockets get to Gaza now is that the Palestinians had to dig fucking tunnels to avoid starving death, allowing the free flow of arms from Egypt. They deserve to starve, they use suicide bombers.

When Israel decides they really want to do something about long term peace, I'll be all for it. Even if they decide they want to annex Lebanon, or something that would accomplish ANYTHING for them strategically, I'll understand it. THIS, however, is just killing for the sake of killing. Israel can't realistically hold Gaza City, they can't destroy Hamas, they can't even spend much time doing whatever is the **** they think they're doing now. Committing to an extended foray in Gaza weakens their Northern border and invites Hezbollah to wreak havoc, and be the conquering hero yet again.

In point of fact, this entire action has almost certainly been CLEARED BY ISRAEL with Hezbollah and Egypt in back channels. There's likely even an agreed upon time frame for the force withdrawal.

Context. Please, put all of this in context. When Palestinians were given the choice in elections, they had to choose between a corrupt Fatah that had been in power for decades and which had achieved nothing, or choosing Hamas, which at the time posed as an anti-corrution resistance movement. Not only that, but Hamas was not just a terrorist group: It was heavily involved in civil things, like cleaning up the streets, charity work, providing jobs, etc... On the streets of the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas was more than just a military/terrorist group. Not saying that´s right, but that was the context on the ground. It was more complex that simply "We voted for the crazy f8ckers that wanna suice-bomb their way to peace."

Second, since when can the whole civilian population be held to account for the way a majority votes? Is this principle applicable everywhere, or only in Palestine? Because, correct me if I misundersand, you´re justfying the indiscriminate killing of civilians on the ground that a majority elected a certain political party. This is pretty insane. Does this mean, if we reverse the situation, that Iraqis would be justified in attacking American civilians in the US because they voted for the man that invaded and occupied their country? Does this mean that people in Gaza and the West Bank can legitimately attack Israeli civilians because they voted for the politicians who are currently destroying their homes and killing their family? Or is this principle only applicable to Palestinians?

The majority of people living in Palestine didn´t vote for Hamas. A majority of voters might have, but the majority of people living in Palestinine did not. And yet their death is justified?



You know how many Israelis have been killed by Hamas in 2008? 11. That´s how many. 11. Sorry, but that´s hardly the work of a tremendously dangerous terrorist groups. How many Palestinians have been killed ·in the last week· as a direct result of Israeli military action? Over 450. Of those, a quarter were women and children. That´s over a 100.

So yes, I think a little outrage as this disproportionality would be in order.



Oh, that´s ******** and you know it. Am I supposed to believe that Israeli rockets fired from planes and helicopters magically avoid civilians? Do you know the density of the Gaza? Have you seen what this place looks like? They hit Mosques, they hit buildings, they hit roads, they hit everything. What were the Gaza civilians supposed to do? Run somewhere else? Oh, wait, they can´t, they live in a gigantic prison...

I agree with some of your arguments, really I do, but please do´t tell me that civilians in gaza die because "Hamas is hiding behind them". Civilians live in Gaza. 350 tons of rockets don´t discriminate. Give me a break.



Like the West Bankers who elected Fatah? You know, the Fatah that hasn´t done a single terrorist attack in Israel in years, the Fatah that is willing to discuss and negotiate with Israel, the Fatah of Abbas who is by all acounts a moderate? What have they gotten for it? Nothing. Except a few more illegal settlements on their land. I´m sorry, but if what you said was true, then Israel would have acted in the West Bank. They haven´t. Or rather, they have allowed the illegal settlements to continue without providing any hope of a solution. Nice example to set. Elect moderates you get f&ucked, elect extremists you get even more f&cked.



Right, because that´s what all of Gazans do? I don´t think you´re a tool of the military complex thing, whatever that might be, but I do think you´re a little one-sided on the issue. Israel is not blame-free by any standards. In terms of killing, they are far worse than the Palestinians. Look at the numbers. You can justify this any way you want, but Israel kills a hell of lot more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis. The ratio is not far from 100-1. That´s one benchmark from which to judge the situation. It´s not the only one, for sure, but it is a pretty respectable one.

And even if you can´t be emotional about Palestinians getting killed, can you at least recognise the strategic stupidity of these actions?

What the hell are they going to achieve? What will be the positives from this war? Do you really think the rockets will stop? That Hamas will disappear? That people will think, "Hey, this is Hamas´s fault, let´s do like the West Bankers and elect some moderates so that Israel can keep on grabbing our land in peace?"

And what are the negatives from this action? The whole Arab world is even more pissed off with Israel. The Israeli-Syria talks are dead. The Egyptians, who ahve been trying to sort this **** out, are discredited. The Iranians are stronger, because there´s no way we´re isolating them now. The peace process in Israel is set-back by 5-10 years. The people of Gaza will hate Israel even more.

Death and destruction breeds hatred and extremism. The last 50 years of this region´s history shows it. And yet, simply because there´s an election coming up, Israel is ready to jeopardise the whole thing in order to appear "tough". They know bombing and killing is not a solution. Everyone knows that. It is f&ucked up.

And I´m not some crazy Anti-semite. I was planning to go to Israel in April to visit. I think Israel has a right to exist, in peace. I think they´ve done some admirable things in their own country. I think Hamas are crazy fundamentalist fanatics, and that their firing of rockets on Ashekton is wrong and ridiculously pointless. But for me, a teenager from Tel-Aviv is not worth more than a kid born in Gaza. A suicide-bombing in Israel is not worse than an Israeli rockets that hits a civilian house.

How long can they justify murdering Palestinian children because of the mistakes made by their parents? When I see **** like this, I wonder if Israel really wants peace. Because if they are, their strategist is one retarded motherf8cker.