israel / hamasFollow

Legally speaking, they cease being combat personnel once their term of service is over. Simply because a nation practises conscription does not mean that every adult member of the population is a soldier. They simply served as soldiers. By wartime convention, they are civilians when not called to service. Your definition of "military personnel" seems to be "potential military personnel" which really encapsulates everyone of sufficient age and physical health.

If we're speaking morally and not legally, it's still unjustified, because while they are soldiers, their service was compulsory and they had no choice in the matter. You can't claim they chose to support their nation's military policy when they were conscripted.



The formation of most of the USSR? I'm not familiar with the period, but it's what jumps to mind. They certainly didn't expand over Europe and the Middle East peacefully. Obviously they never pacified Afghanistan, but other nations were subsumed under threat of force, surely.

I'll look it up and get back to you, I'm a little iffy on that.

Don't forget after the Holocaust most countries of the world didnt want Jews. Even Canada is infamous for their "None is too many" limitation on european Jews, which is sad, being that Canada was and still is, considered one of the the most gracious countries of the western world.
The survivors of the holocaust had no where to go, and instead of rotting in the russian and american camps that were set up for them they deceided to leave to find a new home. After such a massive trauma such as the extermination of 6 Million of there kind, I'm going to assume faith and common sence took the best part of most of them. At the time, Palestine (Pre-Israel) was a British colony with palestinians just bobbing around in it. There were a lot of empty plots of land and most of the country was desert. Not only was Israel the only suitting place they could go its probabbly the best place they could have gone, since most of the land was unussed and it suitted the Jewish relegiouse faith.
Thats my 2 cents on Jewish History, if im wrong pliz correct me.
As for the validation of Israel TODAYS WORLD...
I think as a first world country, Israel is probabbly one of the most important countries in the world. Israel is the only civilized country in the middle east (Civillian wise that is, Egypt and Jordan have okay governments but both countries still nurture terrorists) which is key for modernization and stabbility in the middle east. If you say Israel is the cause of terror in the Middle east you have been missinformed since there are more arab->arab massacres and slaughters evrey day then in all of Israels history (exageration but not by so much...). Israel is also going to be the country to react to terrorisim first. If Iran gets out of hand i doubt america is going to do much. If you think the U.S. took over Iraq single handedly I can assure you, you are wrong. Israeli intelligence (Mossad) and secret police (Shabak) are some of the most powerfull agencys in the world and i would not be surprised if they helped the U.S. out evrey now and then, esspeicailly with middle eastern porblems sucj as afganisthan and Iraw. Also, as a modern country in todays world, Israel has vast and unique amounts of cultures and peoples livving within its walls. I talk to my friends evrey now and then and they alwayse think of israel as an all jewish country when in fact, i see asian, african, european and american civilians all the time there. and finnaly, I hope you understand that Israel is one of the top producers of Technology and agriculture in the world, -even surpassing superpowers like China (in technology) and Japan ( in Agriculture). Israel has given a lot to the world, and after watching the riots in London at the israeli counsollae im quite disgusted.
I hope this helps validate israels existance.

You should read the thread before you post. Because this was already answered.

Hamas DID start shooting first both after this cease fire and every other time there was a ceasefire.

The 10ft wall was built because of suicide bombers and the food aid restricted because Hamas where smuggling arms into Gaza using them, Workers from Gaza where stopped from going into Israel because they where hiding suicide bombers and killing Israeli's.

Every time israel try to do something good Hamas use it to kill Israeli's so forgive me if i'm not sutrprised that Israel are loathe to lend support to the people trying to kill them.

No, but it does make them forfeit.

Wow. You'd think Hamas would be smart enough to stop firing rockets then, huh?

Its a group that is self centered, or only worried about its own self interest. For example, we might think that 500,000+ innocent Iraqi civilians deaths are insignificant but that 4,000+ US military deaths are significant (worth measuring and reporting.)



I used to be a blind idiotic supporter of Israel because that's what Western culture assimilates you into doing until I actually researched what is happening there.

Hamas sounds like a bunch of seriously fucked up people then. Good thing Israel is protecting themselves from them.

Maybe you should direct some of your ire towards the group that's hiding behind children because they want their own children to die so they can raise up a bunch of baby suicide bombers. You know, instead of blaming Israel for the kids' deaths.

Think about it: You have, by your own admission, a group of people whose plan is to have their kids killed by Israel so their other kids will be pissed off enough to run into Israel and blow themselves up.

You have another group trying to stop this first group and, unintentionally, wind up killing some civilians along the way. Which is unfortunate but it's not why the second group is there.

And you, for some reason, spend your time placing the blame on the second group. Strange.They're not just some random knotheads with rockets, they're an elected political group in Palestine. The people of Palestine chose to endorse their agenda when they voted Hamas into power. Now it could be that some of them said "Well, I don't agree with Hamas' 'Kill All The Jews' stance but I do like their stance on the capital gains tax" but I tend to think that the "Death to Israel" part was kind of the single issue in the vote for most.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 12:42pm by Jophiel

Much of that is because Israel gave up many consessions in the Arab negotiated ceasefire that desolved recently and alot of the Arab countries are extremly upset by the way Hamas have acted in the last 12 months from the repeated rocket attacks from gaza during the ceasefire to the public request for Suicide bombers from a leading member of the Hamas "Government"

It is my opinion that the ceasefire was called purely to rearm the Hamas militants and nothing more.

Israel is going to be the focal point of Arab hatred and militancy no matter what Israel does. The very existence of Israel is a rallying cry for Arab militants.

I know what you're saying, and I sympathize; but the reality is, that genie is out of the bottle and it ain't goin' back.

I did. And I saw you condemning Israel repeatedly and yet not once directly condemn Hamas. You know, the people who are hoping their children are killed (or "murdered" as you keep chosing to say) so their other children will one day blow themselves up.

But quote for me where you actually said in this thread that Hamas is wrong (as you've said repeatedly and directly that Israel is wrong) and I'll rescind the statement.

I've no idea what would make someone repeatedly and directly blame one side, calling them murderers and accusing them of horrible misdeeds and yet neglect to directly blame the side whose entire modus operandi is to try to ensure their own children are murdered but maybe you can explain it. 'Cause, personally, I think the second group is waaayyyyyy more fucked up than the guys trying to stop the child-murderers.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 5:12pm by Jophiel

personally, I think the second group is waaayyyyyy more @#%^ed up than the guys trying to stop the child-murderers.

Really? I tend to think one side is wayyyyyyyy less technically adept at warfare than the other guys. If by fucked up you meant poor, sure.

Is the idea that it's morally superior to be willing to die for what you relive in when you can drop fire from your flying machine on children instead of sacrificing your own life to inflict damage really what you're trying to convey here?

Israel's not exactly the gold standard for adhering to international standards of morality when it comes to applying violence. You can rationalize their long history of unilateral assassinations and naked provocations as much as you want, but anyone familiar with the situation can do the same for Hammas.

This is a bullsh*t war, period. It will accomplish nothing for Israel, but will demonstrate that a woman leader can be "tough", as if Israel hadn't already proven that decades ago. Hammas isn't the problem, Hammas is just a label for the people who are firing the rockets this year. They don't manufacture the rockets to any significant degree. When Israel starts bombing Damascus and Cairo, give me a call. Until then, this is a PR campaign by a weak governing coalition and little more.




Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 8:12pm by Smasharoo