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#252 Jan 07 2009 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
Sarcasm is lost on you, Mr. Gbaji.

As far as I'm concerned, Hamas should be wiped out and/or imprisoned with as minimal a loss of civilian life as possible. I was arguing with a dipshit who was for the killing of ALL of Palestine.

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Other than the fact that the Palestinians of the day included Jews as well as other religions. And the fact that the region was sparsely populated until the Zionists came along and spent millions of dollars and decades of labor irrigating large sections of land there. But other than that, sure...

The objective of Israel is to disarm and defeat Hamas. This is no different than any other nation in history responding to aggression by a neighbor with military force.


I'm glad we agree!

Quote:
Tell you what? Why don't you do a tiny bit of research and dig up the percentage of Israeli dead over the last 8 years from Palestinian attack that consisted of soldiers versus civilians and compare it to the same percentage of Palestinians killed by Israel. Get back to me when you're done and explain how exactly it's the Israelis who are slaughtering innocent civilians in all of this...


Why don't you? I don't even know which of my points you were trying to argue against with this garbage. Cause the answer to my question about "Should we have killed every Indian for the actions of a few?" & "So then should Israel kill every Palestinian because of the actions of a few?" should be/have been "no".

Unless you're a racist twat.
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#253REDACTED, Posted: Jan 08 2009 at 1:57 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why was my post deleted? It was just a hypothetical situation that i said would never happen. Good job moderating......
#254 Jan 08 2009 at 5:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Zidian wrote:
Why was my post deleted? It was just a hypothetical situation that i said would never happen. Good job moderating......
It wasn't. It was rated down past Default and you probably have your post filter set to Default.

It was rated down by posters, not moderators.
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#255 Jan 08 2009 at 5:40 AM Rating: Good
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"Words"


The Asylum.

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Grow up & stop sucking or GTFO.
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#256 Jan 08 2009 at 6:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Finally, the real story is getting out.
The Christian Science Monitor wrote:
Hey, remember that old saying, “I’d rather get my international news from an unlicensed plumber than an experienced journalist?”

We don’t either. But if that’s your motto, we’ve got good news for you: Joe the Plumber is back!

A conservative web site long known for it’s international news prowess (Pajamas TV - who else?) has hired the former kind-of plumber/McCain prop/kind-of author to be their war correspondent over in Israel.

By the way, we’re not making this up.
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#257 Jan 08 2009 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, ****.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.rockets/index.html

Lebanese PM condemns rocket attack on IsraelStory Highlights
NEW: Prime Minister Fouad Siniora calls attack a violation of U.N. resolution

NEW: Lebanese government, United Nations investigating, Siniora says

Four Lebanon-based rockets strike northern Israel, authorities say

Israeli military returns fire toward source of rocket attack

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Lebanon's prime minister condemned the firing of rockets into northern Israel after an attack wounded two Israelis on Thursday. He said his government is trying to determine who was responsible.


U.N. soldiers on Thursday inspect the site in Lebanon thought to be the source of rockets fired into Israel.

1 of 2 Israel's military warned Israeli civilians to stick close to shelters after police said at least four rockets hit near the city of Nahariya, about 6 miles (10 kilometers) south of the Lebanese border. The Israeli military said it returned fire across the border with mortars.

Schools and kindergartens were closed in Nahariya and the nearby town of Shlomi, the Israel Defense Forces reported.

"What happened in the south [of Lebanon] is a violation of Resolution 1701 and is rejected by Lebanon," Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said, referring to the U.N. resolution that ended the 2006 conflict between Israel and Lebanon's Hezbollah militia.

In a statement issued by his office, Siniora said he has asked Lebanese authorities to investigate the attack alongside troops from the U.N. peacekeeping force deployed along the border. He also condemned the Israeli retaliatory strikes, which the Lebanese military said inflicted no casualties. Watch CNN's Christiane Amanpour discuss rocket attack »

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, which came as Israeli airstrikes on Gaza, to the south, entered a 13th day.

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Israel hits 60 Gaza targets as diplomats gather
Truce crumbles as diplomats eye cease-fire
The Israeli campaign in Gaza is aimed at halting rocket fire from the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory. Israel fought a similar battle against the Lebanese Shiite Muslim militia Hezbollah in 2006, during which Hezbollah rained rockets on cities in Israeli's north for a month before a cease-fire was reached.

But Hezbollah has kept a tight rein on its forces in southern Lebanon since the cease-fire, and a number of Palestinian factions operate in southern Lebanon as well.

Andrea Tenenti, a spokesman for UNIFIL, the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Lebanon, said the rockets appear to have been fired from a point about 4.5 miles east of Naqoura, where the peacekeepers are headquartered.


"We've been intensifying our patrols on the ground in order to prevent any further incident," Tenenti said.

He said UNIFIL's commander, Maj. Gen. Claudio Graziano, is in "constant and close contact" with both sides "and has urged maximum restraint in order to prevent any escalation of the situation."
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#258 Jan 08 2009 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Quote:
Tell you what? Why don't you do a tiny bit of research and dig up the percentage of Israeli dead over the last 8 years from Palestinian attack that consisted of soldiers versus civilians and compare it to the same percentage of Palestinians killed by Israel. Get back to me when you're done and explain how exactly it's the Israelis who are slaughtering innocent civilians in all of this...


Why don't you?


Sure. Since 2000, 69% of Israeli fatalities resulting from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have been civilians. 31% have been IDF. 59% of Palestinian fatalities have been civilians, with 41% being "engaged in hostile activities when they died". Of course, the latter is harder to calculate since so few Palestinian fighters wear any sort of uniform.

The point being that the 59% number is the "highest" it could be. It's likely lower since we're effectively counting any Palestinian body that doesn't have a gun in it's hand a civilian. And even then, the percentage is still lower than that of the Israeli civilians killed. My argument is that it's absurd that people keep blaming the Israelis for the deaths of "Innocent civilians", when it's the Palestinians who have been actively targeting civilians and have killed a higher percentage along the way.


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I don't even know which of my points you were trying to argue against with this garbage.


Honestly? I was lumping you in with the rest of the "isreal is being mean!" crowd. Mostly because of your first statement that "no one is supporting Hamas". I'm sorry, but when people call for cease fire and restraint on the part of Israel, but never seem to take note much less action as a result of ongoing Palestinian attacks against Israel, I see that as "supporting Hamas". There is zero doubt with regard to this current conflict that a cease-fire helps Hamas and hurts Israel. Period. Ergo, anyone calling for it, is supporting Hamas.

I apologize for specifically targeting that response at you. I just read that top line and tossed you in with the rest. It's just that it's staggering that we ignore when Hamas fires rockets at Israel day after day for years, killing civilians (and that's not counting the suicide bombers), yet when Israel finally decides enough is enough and takes military action, suddenly everyone insists that they must stop because innocent bystanders might get hurt.

Sorry. That's just absurd.

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Cause the answer to my question about "Should we have killed every Indian for the actions of a few?" & "So then should Israel kill every Palestinian because of the actions of a few?" should be/have been "no".


Sure. But the broader question is: "Why do we only have threads about the importance of not killing innocent civilians when Israel is on the offensive?". Go find me how many threads about conflict between Palestine and Israel exist when Israel isn't the one attacking. Strange, isn't it? We only take note or care when the world is calling for Israel to stop attacking Palestine, but never when Palestinian rockets or suicide bombers kill Israeli civilians (targeting them specifically in fact).

Don't you find that the least bit odd? I do...
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#259 Jan 08 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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Sure. But the broader question is: "Why do we only have threads about the importance of not killing innocent civilians when Israel is on the offensive?". Go find me how many threads about conflict between Palestine and Israel exist when Israel isn't the one attacking. Strange, isn't it? We only take note or care when the world is calling for Israel to stop attacking Palestine, but never when Palestinian rockets or suicide bombers kill Israeli civilians (targeting them specifically in fact).

Don't you find that the least bit odd? I do...


It's because Israel, as a nation wants to have the image of a "good" nation, not one who has terrorist connections. Terrorist activity is automatically condemned. Wouldn't noting the fact that terrorist organizations target civilians be redundant?

If Israel wants to be hold out for lasting peace in the region, then they need to show that they are better than the regimes that will eventually crumble into more moderate factions.

We are not supporting the actions of Hamas, but having a strategy that helps the situation rather than makes it worse is the goal here.

Understood?
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#260 Jan 08 2009 at 7:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is zero doubt with regard to this current conflict that a cease-fire helps Hamas and hurts Israel. Period. Ergo, anyone calling for it, is supporting Hamas.


A cease-fire which turns into a tenuous peace, which turns into a less tenuous and more long term deescalation on forces helps Israel, and the region in general.

Intermittent fighting, rebuilding and cyclic retaliatory spats helps Hamas and terrorist escalation.

See the difference here?
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#261 Jan 08 2009 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
There is zero doubt with regard to this current conflict that a cease-fire helps Hamas and hurts Israel. Period. Ergo, anyone calling for it, is supporting Hamas.
Reuters wrote:
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice flew to New York on Tuesday to discuss with key powers how to get a ceasefire in Gaza that the United States says must be durable, sustainable and indefinite.
[...]
The Bush administration is pressing for a ceasefire that would include three elements: a halt to rocket attacks from Gaza, the opening of border crossings into the territory and an end to smuggling into the area through tunnels from Egypt.
Why does Bush support Hamas? Smiley: frown
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#262 Jan 08 2009 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why does Bush support Hamas?


Because he is Palin around with terrorists.
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#263 Jan 08 2009 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
It's because Israel, as a nation wants to have the image of a "good" nation, not one who has terrorist connections. Terrorist activity is automatically condemned. Wouldn't noting the fact that terrorist organizations target civilians be redundant?


Sure. But the danger is that by not mentioning it (cause it's redundant or something), the average person on the street simply does not know what's going on. So they only news they hear about violence in the region is when Israel invades one of the Palestinian territories, resulting in the assumption that Israel is the aggressor and the Palestinians are just innocent people being beat on by the big bad Israel.

How many people parroted pretty much that exact sentiment just in this thread? That's the result of only ever seeing major news coverage when Israel is firing at Palestine, but never when it's the other way around.

Quote:
If Israel wants to be hold out for lasting peace in the region, then they need to show that they are better than the regimes that will eventually crumble into more moderate factions.


Please elaborate? What exactly do you mean by "lasting peace"? Who exactly are you talking about when you say "regimes", and how do they show they are better than them?

It's easy to spout rhetoric. It's much harder to be specific. Every single time Israel has bowed to international pressure and tried to negotiate they have been screwed. The regimes do not "crumble into more moderate factions". What has happened is that the leaders they negotiate with in good face lose power and are replaced with more radical ones. Israel gives up something and gets nothing back. Then, when it attempts to get back what it gave up (like say some land or some line it promised not to cross), it's labeled the bad guy. Meanwhile, the new Palestinian leaders are free to continue to attack them and press for yet more concessions.

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We are not supporting the actions of Hamas, but having a strategy that helps the situation rather than makes it worse is the goal here.


Insisting that Israel allow a cease fire and allow UN peacekeepers into the area to prevent combat helps Hamas. Period. What part of that don't you get? Hamas gets to keep it's rockets. It gets to get away with the violence it's already done. It'll wait for a few months, and then resume when the world isn't looking. They'll fill another few dozen Israeli citizens until eventually Israel will respond, and then they'll cry to the UN and we'll repeat the process.

It's exactly like two people fighting. One guy hits the other several times. The other starts hitting back, but then a ref comes up and tells them to break it up. Then, the second the ref looks away, the first guy resumes hitting. The problem is that as long as it's just Palestinians firing rockets or sending suicide bombs into Israel, the ref (the UN) doesn't do anything. He only intervenes when Israel fights back.

The end result is that you're allowing Hamas to attack whenever they want, but preventing Israel from being able to respond. That's supporting Hamas, no matter how you want to label it.


Quote:
Understood?


Yes. But I think you don't. You seem woefully ignorant of the history of this conflict.
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#264 Jan 08 2009 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes. But I think you don't. You seem woefully ignorant of the history of this conflict.


No, I'm fully aware of the history of this conflict. And the way other similar issues have been resolved in the past, both through military measures and diplomatic.

---

Quote:
Insisting that Israel allow a cease fire and allow UN peacekeepers into the area to prevent combat helps Hamas. Period. What part of that don't you get? Hamas gets to keep it's rockets. It gets to get away with the violence it's already done. It'll wait for a few months, and then resume when the world isn't looking. They'll fill another few dozen Israeli citizens until eventually Israel will respond, and then they'll cry to the UN and we'll repeat the process.

It's exactly like two people fighting. One guy hits the other several times. The other starts hitting back, but then a ref comes up and tells them to break it up. Then, the second the ref looks away, the first guy resumes hitting. The problem is that as long as it's just Palestinians firing rockets or sending suicide bombs into Israel, the ref (the UN) doesn't do anything. He only intervenes when Israel fights back.

The end result is that you're allowing Hamas to attack whenever they want, but preventing Israel from being able to respond. That's supporting Hamas, no matter how you want to label it.


Terrorist groups require retaliation for long term survival.

Quote:
Please elaborate? What exactly do you mean by "lasting peace"? Who exactly are you talking about when you say "regimes", and how do they show they are better than them?

It's easy to spout rhetoric. It's much harder to be specific. Every single time Israel has bowed to international pressure and tried to negotiate they have been screwed. The regimes do not "crumble into more moderate factions". What has happened is that the leaders they negotiate with in good face lose power and are replaced with more radical ones. Israel gives up something and gets nothing back. Then, when it attempts to get back what it gave up (like say some land or some line it promised not to cross), it's labeled the bad guy. Meanwhile, the new Palestinian leaders are free to continue to attack them and press for yet more concessions.


What do I mean by lasting peace? I mean deescalation of the combat situation and an eventual end to it. Putting conditional qualifiers on the concessions is an effective way of getting them to succeed. Try this type of concession: If you(Palestine) can reduce attacks on us(Israel) by terrorist cells within your country and keep them down, then we will share X resource(Be it land, or whatever). If they reduce them, then they get that concession, and if they don't they do not and if they escalate, they could lose previous conditional concessions and can point to those documents as a way of justifying their actions whatever the case.

Wow, that took a lot of work to develop a rough plan for effective international policy. I must be some kind of diplomatic savant.


Edited, Jan 8th 2009 11:24pm by Timelordwho
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#265 Jan 08 2009 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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Sure. But the danger is that by not mentioning it (cause it's redundant or something), the average person on the street simply does not know what's going on. So they only news they hear about violence in the region is when Israel invades one of the Palestinian territories, resulting in the assumption that Israel is the aggressor and the Palestinians are just innocent people being beat on by the big bad Israel.

How many people parroted pretty much that exact sentiment just in this thread? That's the result of only ever seeing major news coverage when Israel is firing at Palestine, but never when it's the other way around.


If Israeli forces invade an area, they are, by default the aggressor.

If Palestinian forces launch rocket attacks they are, by default the aggressor.

I doubt very much that if say, a news story broke which said that they captured a bunch of Palestinian terrorists that the public sentiment would be for them.

Edited, Jan 9th 2009 12:07am by Timelordwho
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#266 Jan 08 2009 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
The Great BrownDuck wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
[b]


IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Get it yet?




And if we're talking about Gaza as a whole here, it's more like

WWWWWIIIIIIIIIIII
WWWWWWGIIIIIIIIII
WWWWWWGIIIIIIIIII
WWWWWWGIIIIIIIIII
WWWWWWGIIIIIIIIII
WWWWWWIIIIIIIIIII
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 5:30pm by BrownDuck


Its more lke this

WWWIIIIII
WWWGIIIII
WWWGIIIII
WWWGIIII
WWEEEIIIII
WWWEEEEIII
WWWEEEEEI

Gaza is connected to Egypt.
#267 Jan 08 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Good
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So all those bombings of southern Gaza tunnels were done by Egyptian forces.

Hint:
It was drawn like this for a reason.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIGIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII


Edited, Jan 9th 2009 12:20am by Timelordwho
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#268 Jan 09 2009 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Terrorist groups require retaliation for long term survival.


No they don't. This is commonly repeated rhetoric which is based upon nothing more than a desire to oppose those who choose to fight terrorist groups.

A single group may cease to exist if it's reason for existing has ended (say they got everything they wanted). But the methods will continue and grow. Rewarding an organization which uses terrorism will only encourage the next 5 groups who want something to use terrorism as well. The problem grows as a result of that.

Punish and fight those who use it and the use of terrorism as a means to get what you want will reduce. It's that simple. Do so decisively, and you'll minimize the number of casualties. Drag it out over decades and you'll end up with a body count many many times higher.

Quote:
What do I mean by lasting peace? I mean deescalation of the combat situation and an eventual end to it.


De-escalation of combat only works if both sides believe that have gotten what they want out of the conflict (or at least that they can't gain more by continuing to fight). It's kind of the first rule of warfare.

Do you think that Hamas feels it's gotten everything it thinks it can get by using rockets and suicide bombs? If the answer is "no", then de-escalation cannot work. Period.

The vast majority of conflicts (arguably all) are only resolved by allowing them to escalate to a point where one side believes it can no longer gain a better position by continuing to fight and the other side is satisfied with the gains it has now. That's when you call for peace, send in the diplomats, and begin negotiations. Until that condition is met, any attempt to force a de-escalation of the conflict will not resolve it, but simply put it on hold. This almost always results in more loss of life over time, and certainly drags the conflict out.

In the context of recruitment for terrorism, dragging it out also tends to help recruitment, because while the conflict is ongoing, things tend to be bad for the populace in the area and there appears to be no way for things to get better. In those conditions, recruitment is going to be pretty easy.


Quote:
Putting conditional qualifiers on the concessions is an effective way of getting them to succeed. Try this type of concession: If you(Palestine) can reduce attacks on us(Israel) by terrorist cells within your country and keep them down, then we will share X resource(Be it land, or whatever). If they reduce them, then they get that concession, and if they don't they do not and if they escalate, they could lose previous conditional concessions and can point to those documents as a way of justifying their actions whatever the case.


Didn't you just say you'd studied this? This has been tried at least 3 or 4 times already. What happens every single time is that the leaders who negotiated the concessions are replaced with ones who vow to continue the conflict. Israel attempts to regain the "conditional" concessions it gave away and is labeled as aggressors (like when it rebuilds a wall, or retakes a neighborhood it gave up).

This *might* work if the international community actually remembered that what Israel gave up is supposed to be conditional on the Palestinian territories retaining the same leadership bound by their promises. But they never do, and Israel is always blamed for attempting to retake what it gave away in the last round of negotiations in which they didn't get what they were promised because of some leadership change among the Palestinians they negotiated with.

It's happened over and over. Yet, somehow, no one seems to remember that it's been tried and what happened each time. Just like you apparently can't either.

Quote:
Wow, that took a lot of work to develop a rough plan for effective international policy. I must be some kind of diplomatic savant.


Gee. If only this exact idea hadn't already been tried and failed a half dozen times already...
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#269 Jan 10 2009 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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Punish and fight those who use it and the use of terrorism as a means to get what you want will reduce.


One slight problem: You're stupid. It's impossible to "punish" people WILLING TO DIE to hurt you. There is no deterrent. They win the staring contest. You cannot dissuade them from being willing to die to hurt you by threatening to kill them. Do you see why?

You really need to some day grow out of this infantile habit of viewing every situation as if every person on the planet's psychology was identical to your own. "Well, if I, a giant quivering coward who has never lifted a finger to advocate for any cause I find just, were faced with the prospect of being slightly inconvenienced in some way...say a twenty minute interruption of Television and Internet service, I would immediately give in to any demand. Thus, it must also be true of people in Palestine."

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#270 Jan 10 2009 at 6:22 AM Rating: Decent
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This *might* work if the international community actually remembered that what Israel gave up is supposed to be conditional on the Palestinian territories retaining the same leadership bound by their promises. But they never do, and Israel is always blamed for attempting to retake what it gave away in the last round of negotiations in which they didn't get what they were promised because of some leadership change among the Palestinians they negotiated with.


How did they "get" it to "give away" in the first place, again? Oh yes, that's right. I"d forgotten. Oh wait, I didn't. That was you, my mistake.


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