israel / hamasFollow

about time and long over due. they should have pounded them into the dirt decades ago, holy war be damned.

all the talking, all the negoitaiting, all the restraint only emboldened hamas to keep pulling the tigers tail.

there are three stages to a war if you are on the weaker side.

first is outrage. pride kicks in, justifications of your actions and deamonifacations of the enemy actions reguardless of the truth. demands of justice and retribution.

second is fear. the realization that you will not win. now you play the victim. crying for help. screaming for the women and children. stopping even here is a mistake.

third is survival. the preservation of self from every individual. unity falls apart. caos takes over the population and it is every person for themselves. brothers turn on brothers to protect their own. pride is gone. justifications are gone. outrage is gone. all that is left is a fight to survive. modern war usually stops here. here is the place to START negotiating for an end to hostilities.

this war is still in the first stage. keep firing.

So. Tell me. Was the photo of the father caryying his dead teenager too 'realistic'?

Perhaps a photo of a dead adult with a beard and a gun would be more acceptable?

Denial is always the best course.....

That'd be an excellent reason for the Palestinians to do their best to rein in Hamas rather than giving them expanded powers.

If I thought for a second that Hamas was interested in a peaceful resolution beyond "Everyone in Israel go away", I might have a different opinion. But I don't and so I think that empowering the guys who provoke the guys over yonder into dropping bombs on your neighborhood is a pretty stupid idea.

Late edit: I accidentally spelled "rein" with a "g" which kind of changes the meaning of the word. Oops.

Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 11:01am by Jophiel

You really think that using the tanks, 'planes and military hardware (made and paid for by the USA) on a refugee camp with that sort of population density is really going to do anything that will have a favorable outcome for anyone?
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do you think that maybe hamas should have considered that when they started launching rockets into israel's civilian population areas?

if they didnt care enough to consider the outcome upon their own people with retaliation, why does the rest of the world give two spits about their concerns now?

if hamas can openly target civilians with random rocket attacks, why should the rest of the world cry when it happens to them?

and of hamas really cared weather their own women and children were in harms way, why do they hide in refugee camps and in their familey homes?

when enough palistinian people START caring about their women and children, then MAYBE they ought to consider turning their backs on hamas. or the taliban. or al-queda.

and the only way to make them care is......pound them into the dirt untill the only thing left to them is survival. to the point politics do not matter. to the point lines in the sand denoting borders have no revelance.

hamas doesnt care about innocent women and children, why should the rest of the world care about their women and children?

israel should keep shooting at them where evere they are until their own people turn them out or kill them themselves to survive.

and of they dont.....keep firing, they havent reached stage three yet.
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let me tell you something about human nature. if they think they can get away with something, they keep doing it.

during the race riots here in miami, for three days mobs burned bussiess, pulled people out of their vehicals and killed them in the streets and shot at authorities. we surrounded them with the national guard and waited till they burned everything there was to burn and ran out of bullets then cleaned it up.

the place was a mess and 7 or 8 people were killed.

a few months later, they started rioting again. this time they sent in swat, shot a couple people in the street and arrested over 300 people in one night.

no innocents were killed. no stores were burned. it started and was over that night. and it has never happened since then.

the first time, they were surrounded but no one moved against them. they could get away with it. the second time there was no quarter given. they went in with body armor and automatic weapons and shot anyone holding a gun and arrested everyone in the street. it ended swiftly.

my point? israel adn the US have wasted way way too much time talking to them. letting them get away with it. amd all it has accomplished is to embolden them. to make them feel they have some right to do what they have been doing.

they should have been squashed.....HARD.....the first time.

as i said, they are in stage one. they have two more to go before israel should stop shooting. and if THEY dont want THEIR women and children hurt, then THEY shouldnt be hideing amoung them. and if THEY dont care enough to try keeping them out of harms way, the resy of the world should follow suit and.....keep firing.

You missed one stage. Radicalization. That's when the insurgent/terrorists/popular movement intentionally goad the stronger side into relentlessly attacking and making things worse for the oppressed population, and the stronger side happily obliges, driving more and more of the population into the welcoming arms of the insurgent recruiters.

That'd be an excellent reason for the Palestinians to do their best to reign in Hamas rather than giving them expanded powers.

If I thought for a second that Hamas was interested in a peaceful resolution beyond "Everyone in Israel go away", I might have a different opinion. But I don't and so I think that empowering the guys who provoke the guys over yonder into dropping bombs on your neighborhood is a pretty stupid idea.

If they'd wanted a peaceful resolution, they'd have lost the election.


first is outrage. pride kicks in, justifications of your actions and deamonifacations of the enemy actions reguardless of the truth. demands of justice and retribution.

second is fear. the realization that you will not win. now you play the victim. crying for help. screaming for the women and children. stopping even here is a mistake.

third is survival. the preservation of self from every individual. unity falls apart. caos takes over the population and it is every person for themselves. brothers turn on brothers to protect their own. pride is gone. justifications are gone. outrage is gone. all that is left is a fight to survive. modern war usually stops here. here is the place to START negotiating for an end to hostilities.

This war stops when Hezbolah gets involved, or Israel decides they've killed enough people. Neither result will do much to stop the rocket attacks, the titular reason for the conflict. Killing enough Palestinians may end up in temporarily weakening Hamas, but there's no guarantee that leads to a more moderate force controlling Gaza.

I'm both surprised and happy to see the moderate support for Israel's actions in this thread. While most of us can agree that their response is a bit over the top, I think it's also necessarily over the top. The situation has been going on for far too long, and everybody with half a brain can see that the rocket attacks (and similar agressions) were never going to stop, no matter what diplomatic efforts were in place. At some point, a group of people can no longer simply ignore what is being done to them and must stand strong and fight back.

Children are innocent, killing children is disgusting, I don't understand how you can argue for that.

Sucks to be them, I guess.I'm suggesting that it's okay for Israel to launch strikes against Hamas. Which is what they're doing. Unless you're suggesting that Israel is targeting women & children.

If you want people who think it's okay to kill women and children then you're going to want Hamas. You know, the guys who send out suicide bombers into crowded plazas, mass transit, restaurants, etc. They're not doing that to target Israeli soldiers.

Edited, Jan 1st 2009 9:20pm by Jophiel

It's something that's going to happen while pressuring Hamas to withdraw because Hamas has chosen to hide among women and children (well, when they're not sending women with suicide bombs into Israel, anyway). I don't believe that Israel is particularly happy about it nor do they wish it but that's what happens when the guys firing missiles into your towns decides to hide among the civilian population and what happens when the civilian population decides to allow the missile-firers to hide among them.

If you insist on saying "acceptable collateral" then, sure. Sad as it may be, I still think "acceptable collateral" while attempting to strike military targets beats out directly targeting women & children as your tactic of choice. Israel is doing one and Hamas is doing the other.

Just a couple of points.....

Tarv said:



The whole of Gaza is a civilian area. Its a tiny place with 1.5 million people living in it, 50% of whom are under 15. The Palestinians dont have military bases, a navy, an air-force or sattelites in space. Where would you expect them to fire their home-made rockets from??

If a bunch of masked nutters is in your orchard firing rockets over the fence, what exactly would you do to stop them? Call the police? Oh yeah, cant do that 'cos any police the Israelis havn't killed are working for Hamas.


Joph said:


One of the most striking things to the first time visitor to Israel is that there are uniformed soldiers absolutely everywhere in Israel. Bus stations, shops, restaurants, on the beach, everywhere. They have national service. Everyone except the Hassidim have to join up for 2 or 3 years and then do a couple of weeks or a month at least every year after that.

So connected to the point above. they are targetting military personel.

I'm not supporting random rocket attacks or the suicide attacks that were stopped by Hamas some time ago (watch them start again now), but to suggest that the Israelis and palestinians are playing by the same rules as equal belligerents is ridiculous.

Anyway, apart from all that, can anyone educate me as to when the last time a population was subdued and made peaceful by extreme violence?

The indigenous American populations? An off the cuff example, not the most recent.