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#152 Dec 29 2008 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
And if it were not religious doctrine it would be some other type, such as "the will of the people" or "national security". That is really my only point.

Even the scripture according to Bill and Ted would be subject to manipulation eventually, based on some charismatic leader's interpretation of what constitutes excellence


I completely agree, but its a LOT harder to twist. Be fair here!

"Be Excellent to me else off with your head!" would be a little harder to preach.

Edited, Dec 29th 2008 2:43pm by GwynapNud
#153 Dec 29 2008 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Mistress Nadenu wrote:
Samira wrote:
based on some charismatic leader's interpretation of what constitutes excellence.


The karma scores of a lot of folks here would be cause for revolt!


I hope you're not pointing that thing at ME, Missy! Smiley: glare


JIHAD!!!!!!


Smiley: dnp

Edited, Dec 29th 2008 1:45pm by Nadenu
#154 Dec 29 2008 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
I don't understand that joke, Anna. What's wrong with cats? Are you suggesting I'm too dim to read books with words in them? In fact, I am reading Empire by Niall ferguson at present, which is rather amusing given the direction the argument has taken.

Quote:
Really? No nationalistic fervor there b/c God, we know the British didn't try to colonize much of the world for economic reasons.

Where is your support for such an assumption?


Why would there be nationalistic fervour on Britain's side when the Irish are pacified? There is certainly an economic dimension to the famine, as providing a country with food isn't cheap, and exporting their food = £££! but it's not like the Great Bengal Famine - there are clearly other factors besides greed and natural disaster, including an ideology set against prolonged relief efforts, a dislike of catholicism and "backward" Irish farming methods.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/famine_01.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Irish_Famine
#155 Dec 29 2008 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
Vagina Dentata,
what a wonderful phrase
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Quote:
I don't understand that joke, Anna. What's wrong with cats? Are you suggesting I'm too dim to read books with words in them? In fact, I am reading Empire by Niall ferguson at present, which is rather amusing given the direction the argument has taken.


It was about Jophiel's comment about Lutheran ladies with pictures of kitties and I imagined Angela from the office.

Quote:

Why would there be nationalistic fervour on Britain's side when the Irish are pacified?



I don't understand what you mean here.

And I'm not sure why you don't squarely blame the British rulers for the appalling treatment of the Irish--why they get let off the hook.

Edited, Dec 29th 2008 3:06pm by Annabella
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#156 Dec 29 2008 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,086 posts
Chop chop, Kavekk

Quote:
It is ridiculous to claim that they would still be rebelling against British rule in 1970s if not for the religious factor which stopped Ireland from intergrating with Britain


Now please justify why religion was the cause of Ireland not integrating with Britain. You have still not even come close to this.

Quote:
Famine - there are clearly other factors besides greed and natural disaster, including an ideology set against prolonged relief efforts, a dislike of catholicism and "backward" Irish farming methods.


As for that, oh darling .. who enforced the farming methods? It was not the Irish. Do some research before posting.
#157 Dec 29 2008 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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TILT
I didn't know potatos had a farming method beyond "throw some potatos in the dirt and wait six months".
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#158 Dec 29 2008 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I don't understand what you mean here.


Then I assume you did not mean what I thought you did. Are you talking about the belief that British people are better than Irish people? Because that's tied in with the belief that Protestantism is superioUr to Catolicism.
#159 Dec 29 2008 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand what you mean here.


Then I assume you did not mean what I thought you did. Are you talking about the belief that British people are better than Irish people? Because that's tied in with the belief that Protestantism is superior to Catholicism.


I spell-checked that for you.

Ah, don't you mean more specifically the Church of England vs. the Papists b/c that's really different than the theological battles between Catholics and Protestants?

Don't you think that has more to do with England being in charge of that specific Church vs. some dirty Italians (and a few other religious types) who wouldn't let the king divorce, interfering with his sovereignty? I would be surprised if it were about religious ideology and not nationalism esp. since my family has vacillated between Anglicism and Catholicism and really, they are quite similar.

Edited, Dec 29th 2008 3:20pm by Annabella
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#160 Dec 29 2008 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
As for that, oh darling .. who enforced the farming methods? It was not the Irish. Do some research before posting.


Britain did not enforce any farming methods. The British system of land tenure, which is different, was enforced.

Quote:
Now please justify why religion was the cause of Ireland not integrating with Britain. You have still not even come close to this.


I don't have anywhere near the amount of emotional investment it would require for me to bother writing a few Gbaji sized posts on the subject.
#161 Dec 29 2008 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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See, Gwynad, Kavekk could PWN you but he just doesn't care enough. He's won doubly.

Smiley: waycool
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#162 Dec 29 2008 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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TILT
Baron von Annabella wrote:
my family has vacillated between Anglicism and Catholicism and really, they are quite similar.
Aside from Catholicism being right, you mean Smiley: mad
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#163 Dec 29 2008 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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2,086 posts
Kavekk wrote:
Quote:
As for that, oh darling .. who enforced the farming methods? It was not the Irish. Do some research before posting.


Britain did not enforce any farming methods. The British system of land tenure, which is different, was enforced.


I think you will find the size of allowed plot of land dictates the type of farming you could employ, as does the availability of funds. All of this was out of the hands of the Irish.

Kavekk wrote:
Quote:
Now please justify why religion was the cause of Ireland not integrating with Britain. You have still not even come close to this.


I don't have anywhere near the amount of emotional investment it would require for me to bother writing a few Gbaji sized posts on the subject.


You certainly just tried in numerous posts while avoiding the answer.
#164 Dec 29 2008 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
You certainly just tried in numerous posts while avoiding the answer.


I gave my answer, but you don't think it answered the question. That's different than me avoiding the answer. Clearly, it's going to be a lot of effort, so I'd just as soon as not bother, seeing as I don't really care who "wins".

Quote:
See, Gwynad, Kavekk could PWN you but he just doesn't care enough. He's won doubly.


Quiet, you.
#165 Dec 29 2008 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Baron von Annabella wrote:
See, Gwynad, Kavekk could PWN you but he just doesn't care enough. He's won doubly.

Smiley: waycool


I hardly think so, the best he came up with was to state that the British apathy was due to faith, which is not true.
#166 Dec 29 2008 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
So, do you still live in Eire / the Republic of South Ireland, Gwynap?
#167 Dec 29 2008 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Republic of South Ireland


Smiley: laugh

#168 Dec 29 2008 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Ministry of Silly Cnuts
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Kavekk wrote:
So, do you still live in Eire / the Republic of South Ireland, Gwynap?
Her own ickle world Kavekk. Just like you
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#169 Dec 29 2008 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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2,086 posts
Nobby wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
So, do you still live in Eire / the Republic of South Ireland, Gwynap?
Her own ickle world Kavekk. Just like you


How dare you be so patronising Smiley: mad
#170 Dec 29 2008 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
Nobby wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
So, do you still live in Eire / the Republic of South Ireland, Gwynap?
Her own ickle world Kavekk. Just like you


Yeah, well my world ha a bigger ***** thqan hers, so there.

Oh, and my dad can beat up her dad, too.
#171 Dec 29 2008 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Nobby wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
So, do you still live in Eire / the Republic of South Ireland, Gwynap?
Her own ickle world Kavekk. Just like you


How dare you be so patronising Smiley: mad


At this point, I imagine it's a reflex.
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Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#172 Dec 29 2008 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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29,360 posts
Baron von Annabella wrote:
GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Nobby wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
So, do you still live in Eire / the Republic of South Ireland, Gwynap?
Her own ickle world Kavekk. Just like you


How dare you be so patronising Smiley: mad


At this point, I imagine it's a reflex.


And one of his few remaining, poor dear.

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In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#173 Dec 29 2008 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
I don't understand why, as the only living witness to the dinosaurs, Nobby doesn't go into prehistory.

On a serious note, it's suprisingly hard to make up an argument as you go along.

Edited, Dec 29th 2008 4:30pm by Kavekk
#174 Dec 29 2008 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Aside from Catholicism being right, you mean Smiley: mad


Got any links to back that up? Smiley: dubious

Edited, Dec 29th 2008 9:31pm by paulsol
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#175 Dec 29 2008 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Quote:
Aside from Catholicism being right, you mean Smiley: mad


Got any links to back that up? Smiley: dubious

Edited, Dec 29th 2008 9:31pm by paulsol


Have Faith and all will be revealed to you Smiley: nod
#176 Dec 29 2008 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Baron von Annabella wrote:
GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Baron von Annabella wrote:
Absolutely, if you argue that religion is just a vehicle for people to express their human nature then it is neither positive nor negative, which would be consistent with my beliefs.


If its a vehicle for social control and power, then I would agree. At the core the popular religions are a control mechanism. Control for what purpose (good or bad) is the question, and thats where the problem comes in Smiley: wink



At its center all governmental entities are a vehicle for social power and control. Really, do we think that governmental rule is therefore bad? Assertion of the culture and the cultural rules is a neutral thing and necessary for social cohesion.

All else being equal, I'd prefer to be controlled by entities whose goals are influenced by some sort of logic and rationality (even if I disagree with the rationale, e.g. Republican fiscal policy), as opposed to those influenced by magic (e.g. Republican social policy).




Edited, Dec 29th 2008 3:58pm by trickybeck
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