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#27 Dec 15 2008 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Nexa wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
That kind of thing makes me sad that we judge it in black and white but the kind of thing Elinda is describing is very black and that guy deserves all the bad karma the world can give him.


I think he is finding that right now. I doubt many will be mourning him when he dies.

Just for the record I'm all for castration for certain types as a matter of course when convicted ...


Castration would not stop most "real" sex offenders. It is not a sexual urge that drives them but a dominance thing. Even if they had no ***** they would still find a way. There are many other forms of sexual offenses that do not need ***** to ******/oral/****. It might cure a few but it wouldn't stop most.


Sorry, pet peeve of mine: Please stop using the term "sex offender" and "sexual predator" interchangeably. A guy who pissed in public is a sex offender in some states. I don't think we need to use his skin as a lampshade. Also, castration doesn't involve removal of the *****.

Nexa
But a sexual predator IS also a sex offender, and unfortunately, the data-base that allows the public to see these records with a simple 'google' is called the Sex Offender Registry (though it doesn't include public pee'ers, window-butt artists or nekkid gardeners).
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#28 Dec 15 2008 at 1:30 PM Rating: Decent
Nexa wrote:
Oh, and to answer the question, I would treat them exactly the same as I always had if I didn't determine them to be dangerous in any way. The guy that comes in your house and does your plumbing could have shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, but we don't have murderer registries so you'll never know. Maybe your babysitter was convicted of stealing a bunch of sh*t at her last job, or slapping babies willy nilly, but you'll never know because we don't have thief registries or assault registries. Maybe the guy you're going out with next weekend has beat the ever loving crap out of every girl he's ever dated, but again...who knows...However, if anything he did had a sexual component...he can do 20 years and it won't be enough, he'll never be able to get away from it, no matter his regrets or his rehabilitation or his efforts to make amends...he could build houses for habitat for humanity after working 60 hours a week to take care of his wife and family for the rest of his life. It will never be enough for us in this society at this time. We want him crucified. It makes me sick.

For me, there is such a thing as "doing your time" and a punishment fitting a crime. And remember, the registry isn't about punitive damages, it's to "protect us" though it's never been shown to do any such thing and in some cases, studies show that it makes us LESS safe as parents rely more heavily on the government to parent for us. Mostly, it's just a sick @#%^ing way to spy on your neighbors and feel superior in judgment and situation. Let's just go back to stoning people to death.

Nexa



Just a question but have you been a victim of a crime like this? Know someone who has? I will not forgive what was done to me. I can't imagine a punishment that would equal what was done to me. A grown adult who would harm someone like that (IMO) could never go through enough rehabilitation or prison time to make up for what they did.

You have a daughter. If someone close to you that you trusted were to sexually abuse your daughter, what kind of punishment and how long do you think you'd want that person to suffer for what they did?
#29 Dec 15 2008 at 1:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Katielynn wrote:
Nexa wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
That kind of thing makes me sad that we judge it in black and white but the kind of thing Elinda is describing is very black and that guy deserves all the bad karma the world can give him.


I think he is finding that right now. I doubt many will be mourning him when he dies.

Just for the record I'm all for castration for certain types as a matter of course when convicted ...


Castration would not stop most "real" sex offenders. It is not a sexual urge that drives them but a dominance thing. Even if they had no ***** they would still find a way. There are many other forms of sexual offenses that do not need ***** to ******/oral/****. It might cure a few but it wouldn't stop most.


Sorry, pet peeve of mine: Please stop using the term "sex offender" and "sexual predator" interchangeably. A guy who pissed in public is a sex offender in some states. I don't think we need to use his skin as a lampshade. Also, castration doesn't involve removal of the *****.

Nexa


That would be why I put "real" there. We've already discussed how we believe the system is flawed. As to the castration you're right.


Yes, I understand why you put "real" in there, but real is personal opinion while sex offender is a legal term and sexual predator is an industry term. The problem of people confusing the term sex offender and the term sexual predator is very real and very troublesome to me. It was not that long ago that we had someone in Maine look up the addresses of men on the sex offender registry and visit their houses. When he found one that was home, he shot them. One of the two that happened to be home that day was a 24 year old young man who had been convicted of having sex with his under age girlfriend when he was 20. The other was an old man who had molested a 14 year old girl one evening when he was young and suffering from mental problems, probably 40 years prior. Both had already been to jail and just wanted to live as close to normal lives as they could, but without being able to gain the privacy of a convicted murderer of course...once they're out, they're golden. I don't expect any of you to feel any pity because we are so overthetop hardened against perpetrators of sex crimes for reasons I just can't understand.

Nexa
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#30 Dec 15 2008 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Elinda wrote:
Nexa wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
That kind of thing makes me sad that we judge it in black and white but the kind of thing Elinda is describing is very black and that guy deserves all the bad karma the world can give him.


I think he is finding that right now. I doubt many will be mourning him when he dies.

Just for the record I'm all for castration for certain types as a matter of course when convicted ...


Castration would not stop most "real" sex offenders. It is not a sexual urge that drives them but a dominance thing. Even if they had no ***** they would still find a way. There are many other forms of sexual offenses that do not need ***** to ******/oral/****. It might cure a few but it wouldn't stop most.


Sorry, pet peeve of mine: Please stop using the term "sex offender" and "sexual predator" interchangeably. A guy who pissed in public is a sex offender in some states. I don't think we need to use his skin as a lampshade. Also, castration doesn't involve removal of the *****.

Nexa
But a sexual predator IS also a sex offender, and unfortunately, the data-base that allows the public to see these records with a simple 'google' is called the Sex Offender Registry (though it doesn't include public pee'ers, window-butt artists or nekkid gardeners).


The Texas Online Sex Offender list actually tells you what they did, the ages to who they did it and what risk level they are of repeating.
#31 Dec 15 2008 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Katielynn wrote:
The Texas Online Sex Offender list actually tells you what they did, the ages to who they did it and what risk level they are of repeating.


Even then, its dangerous information for innocent people. What if someone with the same name lives in the same town? Its happened before where people have been lynched for anothers crime. Typing errors occur, bad information or people added by mistake or not removed from a list when a mistake is found.
#32 Dec 15 2008 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
GwynapNud the Eccentric wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
The Texas Online Sex Offender list actually tells you what they did, the ages to who they did it and what risk level they are of repeating.


Even then, its dangerous information for innocent people. What if someone with the same name lives in the same town? Its happened before where people have been lynched for anothers crime. Typing errors occur, bad information or people added by mistake or not removed from a list when a mistake is found.


They have the pictures, the date of birth and the crime up. Pretty hard to get someone confused when you have all that.
#33 Dec 15 2008 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Katielynn wrote:

Just a question but have you been a victim of a crime like this? Know someone who has? I will not forgive what was done to me. I can't imagine a punishment that would equal what was done to me. A grown adult who would harm someone like that (IMO) could never go through enough rehabilitation or prison time to make up for what they did.

You have a daughter. If someone close to you that you trusted were to sexually abuse your daughter, what kind of punishment and how long do you think you'd want that person to suffer for what they did?


1. I'm a human sexuality researcher AND I worked with a population of men in prison who were trying to go back to school and make something of their lives. I've met plenty of of sex offenders.
2. Everyone knows someone who has been a victim of a sex crime. Everyone knows SEVERAL people who have been victims of sex crimes. Beyond that, while I respect your right to share your own personal story of sexual abuse, it would be incredibly stupid to think that you're the only one on the board who has been through such a thing. Some people like to keep their personal painful stories to themselves.
3. I do have a daughter, and the appeal to "Save the children" has been an incredibly effective marketing tool used by politicians to get elected by pushing for laws that do nothing to help us, often times make the issues worse, and destroy the lives of countless people in the process. Who's going to run a campaign against the "save the children" issue of the day? It's political suicide because of lunatic ranting and raving, emotion-ridden, illogical and unfounded arguments that are thrown around. Hell, you say something like, "Well, I have looked at the statistics and sex offender registries don't help at all, each step at stricter regulation actually makes the problem worse" and you'll probably be called a child molester yourself.
4. Would I be crushed if my daughter was sexually abused? Absolutely. More so than if she was beaten? Tortured? Killed? No. Believe it or not and despite the implications to the contrary, being raped isn't worse than death.

Nexa
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#34 Dec 15 2008 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Katielynn wrote:
They have the pictures, the date of birth and the crime up. Pretty hard to get someone confused when you have all that.


Tell her that

You see, its not just the list, its what people do with it and how they label people.
Would you be happy to see an innocent victimised for the crime of another? I would never wish that on anyone.

Edited, Dec 15th 2008 4:45pm by GwynapNud
#35 Dec 15 2008 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Nexa wrote:
Oh, and to answer the question, I would treat them exactly the same as I always had if I didn't determine them to be dangerous in any way. The guy that comes in your house and does your plumbing could have shot a man in Reno just to watch him die, but we don't have murderer registries so you'll never know. Maybe your babysitter was convicted of stealing a bunch of sh*t at her last job, or slapping babies willy nilly, but you'll never know because we don't have thief registries or assault registries. Maybe the guy you're going out with next weekend has beat the ever loving crap out of every girl he's ever dated, but again...who knows...However, if anything he did had a sexual component...he can do 20 years and it won't be enough, he'll never be able to get away from it, no matter his regrets or his rehabilitation or his efforts to make amends...he could build houses for habitat for humanity after working 60 hours a week to take care of his wife and family for the rest of his life. It will never be enough for us in this society at this time. We want him crucified. It makes me sick.

For me, there is such a thing as "doing your time" and a punishment fitting a crime. And remember, the registry isn't about punitive damages, it's to "protect us" though it's never been shown to do any such thing and in some cases, studies show that it makes us LESS safe as parents rely more heavily on the government to parent for us. Mostly, it's just a sick @#%^ing way to spy on your neighbors and feel superior in judgment and situation. Let's just go back to stoning people to death.

Nexa


Filthy liberal.
#36 Dec 15 2008 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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The reason for the Sex Registry as Nexa mentioned is for protection. Sexual predation has been recognized as having a psychological component that suggests punishment, such as jail time, does not deter an individual from repeat offense.

...or something like that.

So, is a 'sex registry' going too far?

The information is available regardless of the registry. It just takes more work to get at it. Is informing a neighborhood or a community of a sex offenders presence in any way, shape, or form, a duty of our public safety folks?

Should we be informed of the presence of other deviants that have committed, but done time for, a crime?
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#37 Dec 15 2008 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
Sure, I'd want to be warned if the recently paroled new neighbor was convicted of slicing up people and keeping them in his freezer the same as I'd want to know if the guy next door had been convicted of raping someone. I would take precautions to NOT be a possible next victim and I'd make damn sure my neighbors knew. Would you rather we release these second and third time offenders into a neighborhood without warning their neighbors? I'm not saying their isn't a gray area but I'm saying for those convicted of certain sexual crimes SHOULD NOT be allowed to resume a life around people who have no idea what they have done. You never know if someone is going to re-offend until they do and I'd rather have a heads up than think the quiet old guy next door is harmless when he's not.

Edited, Dec 15th 2008 4:20pm by Katielynn
#38 Dec 15 2008 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Katielynn wrote:
Just a question but have you been a victim of a crime like this? Know someone who has? I will not forgive what was done to me. I can't imagine a punishment that would equal what was done to me. A grown adult who would harm someone like that (IMO) could never go through enough rehabilitation or prison time to make up for what they did.

You have a daughter. If someone close to you that you trusted were to sexually abuse your daughter, what kind of punishment and how long do you think you'd want that person to suffer for what they did?


Katie your offender doesn't know the pain and suffering he put you through. However at the same time you don't know what an offender has gone through and if they're truly sorry for the pain they've caused and if they're really rehabilitated. Just like a man doesn't know what it's like to be pregnant or a woman to get kicked in the balls. I'm not saying what he did to you wasn't terrible and doesn't deserve punishment but you're bordering between punishment and revenge. It's a line that shouldn't be crossed. Each case is different. In yours then there were more people and victims involved. That's not always the case and sometimes these crimes are a one time thing followed by a lifetime of regret. You're angry and rightfully so but revenge is bittersweet.
#39 Dec 15 2008 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
You could be right, Mental, but I cannot imagine not warning the neighbors of these people. If it's a one time offender then they'll just have to earn the trust of those around them but when you're letting repeat offenders back into the public you have to acknowledge that it wasn't a one time thing and that even though they might regret what they did it didn't stop them from doing it again so what's to stop them from doing it another time? All the therapy in the world and promises that they've changed just is NOT enough of a reason to keep the public in the dark.

I do believe the system needs change and the list should be a case by case thing. I don't think some poor kid who got caught sleeping with his girlfriend should be on that list but I do think that the guy who raped his neighbor should be. I'm in total agreement that the system is flawed but I do think that the registry should remain.
#40 Dec 15 2008 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Katielynn wrote:
You could be right, Mental, but I cannot imagine not warning the neighbors of these people. If it's a one time offender then they'll just have to earn the trust of those around them but when you're letting repeat offenders back into the public you have to acknowledge that it wasn't a one time thing and that even though they might regret what they did it didn't stop them from doing it again so what's to stop them from doing it another time? All the therapy in the world and promises that they've changed just is NOT enough of a reason to keep the public in the dark.

I do believe the system needs change and the list should be a case by case thing. I don't think some poor kid who got caught sleeping with his girlfriend should be on that list but I do think that the guy who raped his neighbor should be. I'm in total agreement that the system is flawed but I do think that the registry should remain.


You believe the registry should remain because you like the idea of how you think it *should* work. Like so many others, the idea of it is so fascinating and appealing to your sense of purpose that you don't care about actual outcomes. Do you know what the registry has done to protect people? Do you know what it *has* done is cause more people to stop registering with police departments so that now, offenders who were at least known to the local authorities are now mia? Do you know who those are that are faithful to the registry requirements? Give you a clue, not the dangerous ones. Do you know who avoid the requirements and go underground because it's the only way they can get housing and jobs? Right-o...the ones you want to track.

You know what the number one issues impacting the ability of sex offenders to rehabilitate and go on without offending again? Reintegration into society, acceptance, family, gainful employment. However, this is not what we want at a base level. We would rather that we take measures that DIRECTLY cause further harm, measures the end result of which is MORE sex offenses, than to stop our revenge cycle because it just makes us feel all warm and fuzzy and even better, righteous.

Nexa
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“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#41 Dec 15 2008 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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My heart goes out to Al'Katie and any who suffer at the hands of these morons.

However, invoking mob mentality leads to idiocy, as happened in England a few years back when a 'Paediatrician' was firebombed by illiterate mothers who misunderstood the job-title in their local newspaper.

Child rapists + 2 bricks = the answer

Edited, Dec 15th 2008 5:51pm by Nobby
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#42 Dec 15 2008 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
Nexa wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
You could be right, Mental, but I cannot imagine not warning the neighbors of these people. If it's a one time offender then they'll just have to earn the trust of those around them but when you're letting repeat offenders back into the public you have to acknowledge that it wasn't a one time thing and that even though they might regret what they did it didn't stop them from doing it again so what's to stop them from doing it another time? All the therapy in the world and promises that they've changed just is NOT enough of a reason to keep the public in the dark.

I do believe the system needs change and the list should be a case by case thing. I don't think some poor kid who got caught sleeping with his girlfriend should be on that list but I do think that the guy who raped his neighbor should be. I'm in total agreement that the system is flawed but I do think that the registry should remain.


You believe the registry should remain because you like the idea of how you think it *should* work. Like so many others, the idea of it is so fascinating and appealing to your sense of purpose that you don't care about actual outcomes. Do you know what the registry has done to protect people? Do you know what it *has* done is cause more people to stop registering with police departments so that now, offenders who were at least known to the local authorities are now mia? Do you know who those are that are faithful to the registry requirements? Give you a clue, not the dangerous ones. Do you know who avoid the requirements and go underground because it's the only way they can get housing and jobs? Right-o...the ones you want to track.

You know what the number one issues impacting the ability of sex offenders to rehabilitate and go on without offending again? Reintegration into society, acceptance, family, gainful employment. However, this is not what we want at a base level. We would rather that we take measures that DIRECTLY cause further harm, measures the end result of which is MORE sex offenses, than to stop our revenge cycle because it just makes us feel all warm and fuzzy and even better, righteous.

Nexa


Want my opinion on that? Maybe we shouldn't be releasing the dangerous ones! ZOMG! WHAT A CONCEPT! Or we track animals with high tech why not a person? DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying track everyone and I'm not saying track those who were caught peeing in public or teenaged consensual sex. I'm talking the DANGEROUS ones. My dog can be micro chipped with a itty bitty implant, so can a person.
#43 Dec 15 2008 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I would do the same as most - continue to treat him as before, if maybe slightly colder. No visits with or by children though.

And if his house were to, say, spontaneously burn to the ground one night, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
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#44 Dec 15 2008 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Nexa wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
You could be right, Mental, but I cannot imagine not warning the neighbors of these people. If it's a one time offender then they'll just have to earn the trust of those around them but when you're letting repeat offenders back into the public you have to acknowledge that it wasn't a one time thing and that even though they might regret what they did it didn't stop them from doing it again so what's to stop them from doing it another time? All the therapy in the world and promises that they've changed just is NOT enough of a reason to keep the public in the dark.

I do believe the system needs change and the list should be a case by case thing. I don't think some poor kid who got caught sleeping with his girlfriend should be on that list but I do think that the guy who raped his neighbor should be. I'm in total agreement that the system is flawed but I do think that the registry should remain.


You believe the registry should remain because you like the idea of how you think it *should* work. Like so many others, the idea of it is so fascinating and appealing to your sense of purpose that you don't care about actual outcomes. Do you know what the registry has done to protect people? Do you know what it *has* done is cause more people to stop registering with police departments so that now, offenders who were at least known to the local authorities are now mia? Do you know who those are that are faithful to the registry requirements? Give you a clue, not the dangerous ones. Do you know who avoid the requirements and go underground because it's the only way they can get housing and jobs? Right-o...the ones you want to track.

You know what the number one issues impacting the ability of sex offenders to rehabilitate and go on without offending again? Reintegration into society, acceptance, family, gainful employment. However, this is not what we want at a base level. We would rather that we take measures that DIRECTLY cause further harm, measures the end result of which is MORE sex offenses, than to stop our revenge cycle because it just makes us feel all warm and fuzzy and even better, righteous.

Nexa


The problem is most people are naturally judgmental and disdainful towards others. These list gives these kind of people fodder.

Just like the OP. Their first response was to stop treating them like people. It's natural. However there are things you can do to protect those around you from becoming a victim but still treating these offenders as a person. If someone is going to become rehabilitated it's going to come a lot faster and easier, which is better for the community, if those in their community wouldn't hinder the process. How can someone be rehabilitated if they're treated different?
#45 Dec 15 2008 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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MentalFrog wrote:

The problem is most people are naturally judgmental and disdainful towards others. These list gives these kind of people fodder.

Just like the OP. Their first response was to stop treating them like people. It's natural. However there are things you can do to protect those around you from becoming a victim but still treating these offenders as a person. If someone is going to become rehabilitated it's going to come a lot faster and easier, which is better for the community, if those in their community wouldn't hinder the process. How can someone be rehabilitated if they're treated different?


Certainly. I just wish people would accept that about themselves and stop pushing for things that will hurt my kid. Yeah, that's right, I have a kid, and how would I feel if that happened to her? I don't know, but I sure wish people would stop pushing for measures that are at best, harmful only to the civil liberties of others and at worst, have the direct result of causing them to hurt her.

Oh, you know what else is great about making the sentences harsher and harsher for sexual predators? They kill the victims rather than just molesting them...better to have no witnesses if you're going to get the same sentence as a murderer anyway, right?

Nexa
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#46 Dec 15 2008 at 3:49 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I should not laugh but well done for living up to stereotypes and everything.


I just think of both tshirthell and george lopez whenever something comes up that could potentially involve female teachers sleeping with their male students. Remember that George Lopez episode where the sexual offender moved into the neighborhood and everybody teamed up into a mob to "greet" the person, and then they found it was a woman and stopped caring? I honestly can't think of a mentally stable 15+ guy that wouldn't sleep with his teacher if she was hawt. Smiley: lol

But yeah, situational and ****.
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#47 Dec 15 2008 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
I should not laugh but well done for living up to stereotypes and everything.


I just think of both tshirthell and george lopez whenever something comes up that could potentially involve female teachers sleeping with their male students. Remember that George Lopez episode where the sexual offender moved into the neighborhood and everybody teamed up into a mob to "greet" the person, and then they found it was a woman and stopped caring? I honestly can't think of a mentally stable 15+ guy that wouldn't sleep with his teacher if she was hawt. Smiley: lol

But yeah, situational and sh*t.
You act as though girls don't go all googly-eyed over the young, hot male coach. It still doesn't change the fact that it's an abuse of position.
#48 Dec 15 2008 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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Few years back using Google, I also learn that I live across the street from an old man that is on Maryland's sexual offender list. My first thought once I place an house with the listing, was figures it would be the house of our local red necks. I never actually met the man and if I did I wouldn't say anything to him about his pass. I have no reason to know the detail as the man is unable to move about or care for his own needs.

Now if it was the guy who is caring for him, a red flag would have gone up in my mind and I would have worried more about living near him. He was the owner of the old car parked on their front yard for years and recently has been overheard yelling at his girlfriend in front of their child over money.

While I have a child who was sexually abused as an child and another one who was raped, I recognized how quickly witch hunts get out of hand and so agree with Nexa. If the police and judicial system kept better track of sexual prederators and follow up on reports of abuse, then i don't think we would have created the public lists that are more likely to ruin innocents then actually keep people from becoming victims of repeat offenders.

I learn after the fact that the man who sexually abuse my daughter was known by neighbors to prey on girls and that he had friends in high places, kept him out of jail. When it became too politically hot, to turn an blind eye on his behavior, he left the country and died quietly overseas. The rapist is in jail for a string of rapes and so I'm at peace knowing he will never be release unless he lives to be 130 years old.
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#49 Dec 15 2008 at 9:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Katie wrote:
Or we track animals with high tech why not a person? DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying track everyone and I'm not saying track those who were caught peeing in public or teenaged consensual sex. I'm talking the DANGEROUS ones. My dog can be micro chipped with a itty bitty implant, so can a person.


Uh. What good do you think that would do, exactly? Knowing where they are is the least of it, and knowing where they were when they actually did something bad is only peripherally helpful. It's not like a GPS device. The chip your dog has is to identify him if he's found.

Granted, if they do reoffend it might make them easier to find, eventually; but the same can be said for any offender, and the same arguments can be made against chipping them.

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#50 Dec 15 2008 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Katie your offender doesn't know the pain and suffering he put you through. However at the same time you don't know what an offender has gone through and if they're truly sorry for the pain they've caused and if they're really rehabilitated. Just like a man doesn't know what it's like to be pregnant or a woman to get kicked in the balls. I'm not saying what he did to you wasn't terrible and doesn't deserve punishment but you're bordering between punishment and revenge. It's a line that shouldn't be crossed


Filthy liberal.
#51 Dec 15 2008 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
Personally, I'd be more concerned with the school recommending a pedophile to toot his horn with your son than with a Herbert living near by.

Screenshot


Just Sayin'

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