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#52 Dec 10 2008 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
Pensive wrote:
Well okay, but unless lethal doses of drugs become available over the counter in such a way that the death is as painless as possible, the doctors still own a much better way of going about it. Given a choice between painting my wall with brains and having a nice dose of medicine given to me while I listen to music, I'd go with the music every time.


One can easily sit in a running car in a closed garage with the radio on or a CD playing or an iPod.

But that's beside the point.
#53 Dec 10 2008 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I also think that making suicide that readily available is a bad idea. I, personally, have wanted to die so badly my entire body ached with it. I promised a dear friend I wouldn't take that step, and that's what kept me from it.


I can tell the same story, and yes, making suicide readily available is sure to increase suicides, but there is no reason that we can't impose some control. You shouldn't just be able to walk into a doctors office and have the procedure done at once.

Waiting period, mandatory counciling, end of life affairs.

***

Man what a depressing 5000th post

Edited, Dec 10th 2008 2:33pm by Pensive
#54 Dec 10 2008 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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One can easily sit in a running car in a closed garage with the radio on or a CD playing or an iPod.


Huh I never thought of that.
#55 Dec 10 2008 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
Pensive wrote:
Quote:
I also think that making suicide that readily available is a bad idea. I, personally, have wanted to die so badly my entire body ached with it. I promised a dear friend I wouldn't take that step, and that's what kept me from it.


I can tell the same story, and yes, making suicide readily available is sure to increase suicides, but there is no reason that we can't impose some control. You shouldn't just be able to walk into a doctors office and have the procedure done at once.

Waiting period, mandatory counciling, end of life affairs.


It may sound heartless, but that doesn't seem like enough. It should be something that the person has to face doing themselves in order to be sure it's something they are extremely sure about.

Just a personal opinion, of course, but there is so much more involved in a physically healthy person chosing suicide over trying to get themselves better. Actually looking at the gun, or the bottle of pills, or sitting in the running car and actually facing that situation and realizing what it means could be what they need to snap out of it and realize they want to live.

And comparing that to a medical miracle is idiotic.
#56 Dec 10 2008 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
Pensive wrote:
Quote:
One can easily sit in a running car in a closed garage with the radio on or a CD playing or an iPod.


Huh I never thought of that.


Great. If you kill yourself that way I'm going to feel guilty for the rest of my life. Smiley: bah
#57 Dec 10 2008 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
MentalFrog wrote:
Katielynn wrote:
Samira wrote:
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She donated her body to the med school, when they removed the tumor from her abdomen it was larger than a basket ball and weighed over 10lbs. It had hair and bits of bone in it. She was 41.


Hydatidiform mole?



Hmm, probably could have been. I was 10. I just remember my favorite grandmother going from this vibrant healthy woman who spoilt me rotten to this shriveled up gray and ashen skeleton with a huge stomach. It was horrifying to watch this woman kept me for a month every summer, came and visited often, helped teach me to read and write, go from my grandmother to someone who didn't know who I was in a matter of weeks.

Edited, Dec 10th 2008 1:02pm by Katielynn


Your grandma was 31 when you were born? Your mom's a ****.




Doh! I don't know why I said 41. My grandmother was 44. My mom is 45, I'm 27. My mom is the second of 4 living children, there are 3 who didn't make it past a few months old. My grandmother married at the ripe ol' age of 14.

My mother's sister was 31 when she died of cancer. Think that's where I got the ages mixed up.
#58 Dec 10 2008 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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The probability of someone making do with life shouldn't factor into the decision

It absolutely should if you are asking a medical doctor to end a persons life whose only chance at dying is through suicide. A erminally ill patient suffering immense pain until their last dying moment should be given a way out.
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What is morally relevant is the quantity of pain alleviated versus the quantity of pain created.

A person suffering emotional pain, while still hard to deal with, has no physical reason why a medical doctor should agree to assist in ending ones life. Comparing the two is a moot point. One is with certainty, dying. The other only wishes they were.


Quote:

it is paternalistic and frankly arrogant of you to assume someone's choice without assuming their responsibility. You don't believe that severely disgruntled people should be able to die? Go fix their problems then.



I could care less is a disgrunteled person wants to die. I can even teach them the perfect ratio for a bleach cocktail. The difference is they have a choice and are absolutely free to end their own life. They dont need help from the medical field. There are plenty of options out there for them to make a do it yourself kit.


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And those resources can fail. If someone has exhausted them, why should they not have the same rights as any other individual at ends with life?


See above
#59 Dec 10 2008 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Why is anyone rating anyone?

Its a touchy subject, and I'm entitled to my opinion. I don't really want to think about it anymore.


Your opinion is wrong.

Let me repeat that:

Your opinion is wrong.

But seriously, let's face it, if you haven't given something serious thought, and if you don't want to, your opinion is pretty worthless, and you probably should have kept your mouth shut. I mean, for one, what if someone's costing the state 2 million ounds a year to live in agony? They're not contributing 2 million worth to society, lying in their bed. Thus it isn't selfish for them to kill themselves, by your reasoning. Besides which, I don't think thedebt people owe to society reaches far enough to force them to live against their will. That's tyranny of the worst kind, in my view.

Quote:
Every species but humans?

Humans are really the only species that I can consider who have the capacity to value something more than their own lives.


There's quite a lot of evidence that animals kill themselves. Certainly, they feel sorrow strong enough to override survival instincts.
#60 Dec 10 2008 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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It may sound heartless, but that doesn't seem like enough. It should be something that the person has to face doing themselves in order to be sure it's something they are extremely sure about.


Only if there is an equally painless way that they can administer the lethality.

But that car poisoning thing really is a good idea. I wish I'd thought of it before. I don't know if a bleach cocktail is painless. It would be nice if it were.

Quote:
And comparing that to a medical miracle is idiotic.


And that's why we shouldn't base the moral standing of someone's suicide on the probability of their outcome. Glad that you see it.

Wait no you don't

I never said that a medical miracle was likely in any case. It simply changes the outcome from one of certainty to one of probability; I don't need the comparison for any other purpose, so I would suggest that you do not read any further into it.

Edited, Dec 10th 2008 2:55pm by Pensive
#61 Dec 10 2008 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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Ambrya wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Ambrya wrote:
Christ, are people really this dim that "everyone's going to die anyway" and "you can kill yourself without assistance" are the main talking points against Death with Dignity laws? FFS think outside the box.
Personally, I'm not against. It's like gay marriage, as in it doesn't affect my life, so do whatever makes you happy. I'm just not so sure why you're so mightily in favour of it.


Because I've watched a proud, independent man decline into a withered, helpless husk whose last conscious moments were spent lying on a bathroom floor in a pool of his own liquid *****, crying in humiliation and pain because he was too weak to hold himself up on the toilet while diarrhea seeped from his body--all because he didn't have the option to decide when and how his end would take place when he received the information that he was dying of cancer.

I won't go out that way. NO ONE should have to.

Edited, Dec 10th 2008 10:58am by Ambrya


I empathise having experienced similar with a close relative. It was a degrading experience.

I could not agree more with assisted suicide but there should be checks and balances in place. A missdiagnosis can occur, medical advances can happen and I have at least one relative who was told she would not live past 20 (or if they did would be a cripple). They are now over 50 and living a full life.

Saying all this, if I ever turn into my mother or start fancying Nobby, just shoot me please Smiley: nod

Edited, Dec 10th 2008 2:49pm by GwynapNud
#62 Dec 10 2008 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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There's quite a lot of evidence that animals kill themselves. Certainly, they feel sorrow strong enough to override survival instincts.


Want to enlighten my perspective then?
#63 Dec 10 2008 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
Pensive wrote:
Quote:
There's quite a lot of evidence that animals kill themselves. Certainly, they feel sorrow strong enough to override survival instincts.


Want to enlighten my perspective then?


http://news.softpedia.com/news/Do-Animals-Commit-Suicide-63441.shtml

Here's the first thing google turned up.
#64 Dec 10 2008 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh my god that poor lion. I am sad now. @#%^ I can't read the rest of that.

***

In retrospect that exclusion of animals was strangely out of character for me.

Edited, Dec 10th 2008 2:57pm by Pensive
#65 Dec 10 2008 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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The only person who's opinion I give a toss about on this topic is Nobby, and he's not said anything Smiley: bah
#66 Dec 10 2008 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
The hat on your Garfield avatar has been vadalised, Tarv. Be more careful when you make things see-through!
#67 Dec 10 2008 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
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Quote:
vadalised


Damn vadals! Smiley: mad
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#68 Dec 10 2008 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Ministry of Silly Cnuts
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GwynapNud the Braindead wrote:
start fancying Nobby, just shoot me please Smiley: nod
Start with a warning shot to the face, folks.

She's smitten, obviously.
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#69 Dec 10 2008 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Live with a non fatal illness (fibromyalgia) I've actually thought though wither I want to live my life knowing I face chronic pain at levels that may worsen, as I get older.

I've made the decision to live no matter how bad the pain gets, due to the fact that I have a very loving and supportive family, who give me great joy to be around. I'm not sure I'll feel about living in pain at 70 or 80, but that's still sometime in the further and by then science may offer me a chance at life with out as much pain as I have now, when I over do any activities. Just riding a bus to and from therapy, can set off a flare.

Just knowing how much a difference medications for depression have change since I first needed medication 25 years ago, has been the difference between me actually going through with my thoughts of suicide and getting help when the thoughts return.

I can't think of living as a lonely old person who has no one to make them smile. That said, I understand why my father gave up on living and stopped eating all but milk shakes and juice after a year where he had to give up living independently in his own home and only be given meals that were pureed. At 81 you shouldn't have to have puree carrots with every meal. Though the salmon patties were actually tasty, even when puree.

My mom just didn't want go back to the hospital, after radiation didn't work in slowing her cancer and so died at home in a coma. Of the two I think she was given a chance to die with dignity, that the nursing home wasn't able to give my father. When I last saw his body before his cremation, he look finally at peace and happy to leave this world.

edit to try to make sure my verb tense are correct.

Edited, Dec 10th 2008 9:51pm by ElneClare
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#70 Dec 10 2008 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
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Not to get all mushy, but this thread has made me remember how good I have it to be healthy.

Carry on!

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#71 Dec 10 2008 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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GwynapNud the Braindead wrote:
Ambrya wrote:
Because I've watched a proud, independent man decline into a withered, helpless husk whose last conscious moments were spent lying on a bathroom floor in a pool of his own liquid *****, crying in humiliation and pain because he was too weak to hold himself up on the toilet while diarrhea seeped from his body--all because he didn't have the option to decide when and how his end would take place when he received the information that he was dying of cancer.

I won't go out that way. NO ONE should have to.


I empathise having experienced similar with a close relative. It was a degrading experience.


The most tragic part of my step-father's death is that he was robbed of his remaining quality months by a doctor who was so determined that he "didn't want [my stepfather] to give up" that he lied in order to coerce my step-father into futile treatments.

My step-father was diagnosed with lung cancer and an aneurysm in his descending aorta in the same MRI. Had he not undergone treatment, the best case scenario would have been that at some point before the cancer got too bad, the aneurysm would burst and he'd die quickly and pretty much painlessly. Worst case scenario without treatment would have been that he'd have had 6-9 months of reasonably decent and functional quality of life before the cancer became debilitating.

But he wasn't told that he had this option. He was told that in order to operate on the aneurysm, he needed to undergo chemotherapy to shrink the tumors in his lungs. Over the next four months--four months that he could have spent in relative good health--he got sicker and sicker from the chemo, eventually dying of pneumonia caused by the chemo weakening his immune system. The scene I described above was the one that happened between him and my mother a few hours before he was admitted to the hospital for the final time and died less than a week later.

But a few days before that scene happened, he was informed by his oncologist that the chemo hadn't worked to shrink the tumors sufficiently for them to operate on the aneurysm. The oncologist later told my mother that there had never been any hope of my step-father being stable enough for that operation, but that he had proposed a course of treatment he knew would be futile because he "just hadn't wanted him to give up hope."

What I want to know is, who the bleeding F'UCK was he to make that decision FOR my step-father? Instead of the 6-9 months of decent quality of life my step-father would have had without treatment, he instead had four months of increasing agony and degradation. While in Michigan, assisted suicide would not have been an option, certainly he had the right to refuse treatment, and those of us who were close to him know he would have done exactly that had he known the treatment would only make things worse and for no good purpose.

But that's the problem with the way we regard modern medicine--we're so focused on preserving life that we too often fail to consider the quality of that life. If my step-father couldn't at least choose when his inevitable death would come, at the very least he should have been able to choose how he would meet it.

Quote:

I could not agree more with assisted suicide but there should be checks and balances in place. A missdiagnosis can occur, medical advances can happen and I have at least one relative who was told she would not live past 20 (or if they did would be a cripple). They are now over 50 and living a full life.


Well, I can't speak to the systems set up in other countries, but if you read the page I linked above, there's a lot a lot a lot of due diligence stuff attached to Oregon's Death With Dignity Act to avoid exactly those sorts of situations.
#72 Dec 10 2008 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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Ambrya wrote:
But a few days before that scene happened, he was informed by his oncologist that the chemo hadn't worked to shrink the tumors sufficiently for them to operate on the aneurysm. The oncologist later told my mother that there had never been any hope of my step-father being stable enough for that operation, but that he had proposed a course of treatment he knew would be futile because he "just hadn't wanted him to give up hope."

What I want to know is, who the bleeding F'UCK was he to make that decision FOR my step-father? Instead of the 6-9 months of decent quality of life my step-father would have had without treatment, he instead had four months of increasing agony and degradation. While in Michigan, assisted suicide would not have been an option, certainly he had the right to refuse treatment, and those of us who were close to him know he would have done exactly that had he known the treatment would only make things worse and for no good purpose.

But that's the problem with the way we regard modern medicine--we're so focused on preserving life that we too often fail to consider the quality of that life. If my step-father couldn't at least choose when his inevitable death would come, at the very least he should have been able to choose how he would meet it.


Smiley: frown I am so sorry that this happened to your family.

My relative had a similar experience but fortunately lived through a dose of chemo but she ended up in hospital and nearly died from it. She then refused any more chemotherapy and recovered some of her strength and was able to live a reasonable quality of life before dying 6 months later.
Seeing her change from a strong and independant woman into a bedridden and frail old woman was terrible to witness. I also share your sentiments as her diagnosis was terminal. She would have gained more quality of life without the chemotherapy, even if that life was shorter as a result. It would have been better for her and as a family it would have made our time with her more special.

I lost my hero and my inspiration through Cancer Smiley: frown but worse, due to chemotherapy that would never have cured her I lost her for a period while she was still alive. I'm not sure which I dislike more. The disease or "the cure" ...
#73 Dec 11 2008 at 5:23 AM Rating: Decent
Skelly Poker Since 2008
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Kavekk wrote:
Quote:
Why is anyone rating anyone?

Its a touchy subject, and I'm entitled to my opinion. I don't really want to think about it anymore.


Your opinion is wrong.

Let me repeat that:

Your opinion is wrong.

But seriously, let's face it, if you haven't given something serious thought, and if you don't want to, your opinion is pretty worthless, and you probably should have kept your mouth shut. I mean, for one, what if someone's costing the state 2 million ounds a year to live in agony? They're not contributing 2 million worth to society, lying in their bed. Thus it isn't selfish for them to kill themselves, by your reasoning. Besides which, I don't think thedebt people owe to society reaches far enough to force them to live against their will. That's tyranny of the worst kind, in my view.

Quote:
Every species but humans?

Humans are really the only species that I can consider who have the capacity to value something more than their own lives.


There's quite a lot of evidence that animals kill themselves. Certainly, they feel sorrow strong enough to override survival instincts.
I don't think opinions can be wrong, and serious thought is not a requirement for posting on this forum.

Regardless, how do you even know how much thought someone else has given this?

Those who have lost a loved one to suicide will often, and understandably so, feel the act to be incredibly selfish.
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#75 Dec 12 2008 at 6:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Suicide's stupid.

I can understand that this is an emotionally charged topic for many of you because you may have seen relatives or friends check out painfully, but suicide is stupid. I don't necessarily believe it should be illegal. But what it boils down to is that elderly people seek suicide because they're afraid of pain. You can go ahead and shoot yourself in the head on your fiftieth birthday because you don't want to grow old. You can shoot yourself in the head because you didn't get a bagel that morning, it's your decision. That doesn't stop it being stupid.

Quote:
You think it is selfish? On whose part? Does a loving member really want to keep their dying loved one around and suffering just so they can have a few extra months with them? Who is really the selfish one in that regards?


I thought this line was weird. It made sense the first time I read it, and then it got odder and odder. Of course lovers want to keep their loved ones around for as long as possible. "A few extra months"? Are you insane? Do you know what some people would do to get a few extra months?
#76AshOnMyTomatoes, Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 6:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Enjoy being sub-defaulted for believing, like I do, that all life has value.
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