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Asylum Congressional DelegationFollow

#1 Dec 05 2008 at 6:19 AM Rating: Good
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December 4, 2008 · In making their case for a $34 billion government bailout, the Big Three automakers have warned Congress that allowing them to go bankrupt would devastate the nation's economy and lead to millions of layoffs.

Their arguments aren't just economic — Ford, GM and Chrysler say the downfall of the U.S. auto industry would imperil national security. Many defense experts, however, say this claim is dubious.

How do you vote on bailing out the auto industry?
Yea :11 (13.4%)
Nay:66 (80.5%)
Other:5 (6.1%)
Total:82

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#2 Dec 05 2008 at 6:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nope. They need to restructure. The unions have already agreed to renegotiate. So go talk to them.

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#3 Dec 05 2008 at 6:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, and the whole national security argument is pretty bogus.
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#4 Dec 05 2008 at 6:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's just stupid, stupid, beyond fUCking stupid that the U.S. auto industry has been getting their collective asses kicked for what? 30 years? and still haven't come to terms with it.

Idiots, one and all. The whole "bigger is better" concept was so obviously short sighted, ugh. I could really slap a few people, gleefully and repeatedly.

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#5 Dec 05 2008 at 6:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Idiots, one and all. The whole "bigger is better" concept was so obviously short sighted, ugh. I could really slap a few people, gleefully and repeatedly.


You are forgetting 1 major detail. They did not build the bigger vehicles because it was trendy or because their machinery was already set-up for that. They built it because that is what consumers wanted. They just got too greedy/lazy to adapt to the future.



They have been losing market share for the last 30 years and still turning a profit. You did not hear these companies complain when they were making billions in profit and paying their labor force the exact same wages & benefits.



The whole problem is the same with every other bailout that has occurred recently. It's not about rewarding ***** ups or bad management, its about avoiding the disasters that the ***** ups and bad management will create beyond the company itself.

If the car manufacturers shut down, whole towns will die over night. You are talking about a huge multiplier in unemployment and decreases in the service sector.

The national security comments is nothing but fear mongering. Hell if all those people are laid-off, some would probably gladly join the military or police force just to have a job. So it could potentially increase security if anything.

broad generalizations included

Edited, Dec 5th 2008 9:48am by Kronig
#6 Dec 05 2008 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with Sammy, they need to restructure. They also need to completely evaluate the future course they need to take in order to stay competitive with the global market.
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#7 Dec 05 2008 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
They did not build the bigger vehicles because it was trendy or because their machinery was already set-up for that. They built it because that is what consumers wanted.


Small self-contradiction there.

You know, or should know, that consumers want what they're told to want.

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#8 Dec 05 2008 at 7:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysupplement/stateautoworkers/index.html

While still fear mongering, this is a new link about auto-workers in America. A percentage of the total would be cut of course but not 100%. Still need people to sell cars and build parts, even if the cars are not assembled here.

Could always go with a few less arrogant car salesman who do not listen to you and try to make the biggest buck.


Samira wrote:
Small self-contradiction there.

You know, or should know, that consumers want what they're told to want.


I will agree to an extent, but not everyone is a drone. I happen to buy vehicles based on utility, not shinyness. I may be in the minority though ...

shinyness not spelled right, but i'm gonna go with it /shrug
#9 Dec 05 2008 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Quote:
They did not build the bigger vehicles because it was trendy or because their machinery was already set-up for that. They built it because that is what consumers wanted.


Small self-contradiction there.

You know, or should know, that consumers want what they're told to want.
...and not to mention the obvious but companies like Toyota and Saturn didn't usurp a good portion of the market by selling caddie-sized cars and pickups.

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#10 Dec 05 2008 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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I voted "yea" because my grandmother is living off a GM pension, but as a former resident of Flint, MI I really don't see how much more devastating seeing GM go completely under could be. Flint was once a thriving city where people were gainfully employed and home to an industry that helped elevate most of my family from Ozark white trash to educated and productive middle class citizens. Now, if you want to work in Flint you have two options: minimum wage service industry jobs catering to the GM pensioners or medical-field jobs catering to the elderly GM pensioners who haven't moved because they have no hope of selling the house they bought thirty years ago. Yep, waiting tables and medicine are big, booming industries in Flint, at least for the next 20 years. After that, it's going to be a ghost town.

Honestly, it's the Big 3's own damn fault. They knew they making sh'itty cars but they did nothing to improve quality, which is why they started getting outsold by Honda and Toyota. Surprise, people WILL pay more for a quality product!
#11 Dec 05 2008 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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The fact that they were losing market share should have rung a big frickin' bell. They should have been asking why the were losing that market share, and instead of shrugging it off they should have set themselves up to compete against Toyota and Honda.

It was just stupid and short sighted. Anyone could see that the bigger vehicles are less fuel efficient and harder to maintain to any sort of emissions standard, and that those standards were going to be the way of the future.

They gambled, and gambled badly in the face of the facts. They refused to believe that the world is changing and that change would affect them. They were arrogant. They fUCked up.


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#12 Dec 05 2008 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quoted from The New Yorker magazine:

Car Talk by Elizabeth Kolbert wrote:

The Secretary of Transportation’s report to Congress begins on a dark note. Over the past year, the domestic auto industry has experienced sharply reduced sales and profitability, large indefinite layoffs, and increased market penetration by imports, it states. The shift in consumer preferences towards smaller, more fuel-efficient passenger cars and light trucks . . . appears to be permanent, and the industry will spend massive amounts of money to retool to produce the motor vehicles that the public now wants. The revenue to pay for this retooling, though, will have to come from sales of just the sort of cars that the public is no longer buying a situation, the report observes, bound to produce financial strain.

To improve the overall future prospects for the domestic motor vehicle manufacturers, a quality and price competitive motor vehicle must be produced, the report warns. If this is not accomplished, the long term outlook for the industry is bleak.

The Secretary’s report was delivered to Congress in 1980, a year after what may soon become known as the first Chrysler bailout.


28 years ago... and lately the Big Three actually had someone in Washington listen to them instead of whipping them through the streets like the pariahs they are?
Let them rot, people will still want to buy vehicles and others are still willing to make them.
Things may be uncomfortable for a while but c'est la vie, change or die.


Kronig wrote:
You are forgetting 1 major detail. They did not build the bigger vehicles because it was trendy or because their machinery was already set-up for that. They built it because that is what consumers wanted. They just got too greedy/lazy to adapt to the future.


They were building them precisely because it was trendy for those that could afford it.
But thats what only one segment of the consuming population wanted, it was highly profitable but an unsustainable market.
The constant demand for a small efficient car has always existed and whomever is manufacturing the current version of whatever the small and efficient hot-seller is probably barely meeting market needs.
The Japanese used to fill that niche, but at a price and U.S. manufacturers have never been able to match that size and efficiency with quality, like the Japanese did.
Corporate resonsibility isn't just for shareholders, it's for the employees, clients and neighbours too and as car manufacturers I maintain it's their responsibility to come up with the best car, not the best method of ******** money out of people.
Build it right and the money will come anyway.

This is actually getting posted instead of deleted like all the othe half-typed out crap that gets interrupted by work. Smiley: mad
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#13 Dec 05 2008 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
...and not to mention the obvious but companies like Toyota and Saturn didn't usurp a good portion of the market by selling caddie-sized cars and pickups.


#1 Saturn is owned by GM, that was their attempt to move into the small car market and it has failed. They are currently trying to sell and or shut it down.

#2 Have you seen the Toyota trucks lately? They are advertising and upgrading size to directly compete with Dodge, Ford, and GM. Considering I live in a truck state (Texas) I see relatively few on the road. Dodge has seriously taken over the truck market here, though Ford is making a resurgence. I can't remember which but either the Nissan or Toyota trucks are getting beat to death on consumer reports for poor quality and reliability. While all other US truck manufacturers are increasing. /end tangent
#14 Dec 05 2008 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kronig wrote:
The whole problem is the same with every other bailout that has occurred recently. It's not about rewarding ***** ups or bad management, its about avoiding the disasters that the ***** ups and bad management will create beyond the company itself.

Really? You don't think this bailout is going to end up directly in the pockets of a handful of Big 3 suits? Like the financial bailouts did?

Hey, at least this time when they went to Warshington to beg they drove their hybrids, instead of taking their Lear jets.
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#15 Dec 05 2008 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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Kronig wrote:
Elinda wrote:
...and not to mention the obvious but companies like Toyota and Saturn didn't usurp a good portion of the market by selling caddie-sized cars and pickups.


#1 Saturn is owned by GM, that was their attempt to move into the small car market and it has failed. They are currently trying to sell and or shut it down.

#2 Have you seen the Toyota trucks lately? They are advertising and upgrading size to directly compete with Dodge, Ford, and GM. Considering I live in a truck state (Texas) I see relatively few on the road. Dodge has seriously taken over the truck market here, though Ford is making a resurgence. I can't remember which but either the Nissan or Toyota trucks are getting beat to death on consumer reports for poor quality and reliability. While all other US truck manufacturers are increasing. /end tangent
Sorry, Saturn was a bad example, well not an example at all. There are plenty of others of course, Honda, Hyundai, even Volkswagens....they all took sales away from the big 3.

Why?

You've given the answer yourself. They tried. They made quality cars that people could not only afford to buy, but afford to drive.

If I thought forking over a few billions dollars would do anything but prolong the inevitable, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, I just don't think it will in this case. It's too little too late.
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#16 Dec 05 2008 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
If I thought forking over a few billions dollars would do anything but prolong the inevitable, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, I just don't think it will in this case. It's too little too late.


The same could be said for a lot of the money handed out lately or even the airlines after 9/11.

It really all depends on strategy. If congress makes the big 3 spit out new car designs for direct competition then it could be a huge boost to a failing market. If they roll over and hand out a big check then you are more than likely correct.

The bad thing is that GM is pretty much bankrupt, they have about 18 months if even that to survive without the money. I read where they need 4 billion to pay off debtors before January just to stave off initial bankruptcy proceedings. Ford and Chrysler are probably just trying to get a piece of the pie while its still warm. Ford and Chrysler still have some cash cow brands they could sell and restructure with. GM does not really have that option.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/02/news/companies/automakers_plans/index.htm

Another CNN link, take it as you wish.
#17 Dec 05 2008 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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Until I see a real plan the answer is nay.

Although, the CEO of Ford saying that their motto was "if we build it, they will come" was a step in the right direction.
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#18 Dec 05 2008 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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#19 Dec 05 2008 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why do you suppose I voted no?

You're making assumptions about your audience that I believe to be false.

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#20 Dec 05 2008 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
Nay.

Let them rot.

Give the investment money to these guys instead. At least they have the right ideas.

Aptera: http://www.aptera.com/

Smart Cars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_(automobile)

And for people who want their hot rods: http://www.teslamotors.com/

Why should the big three be given money for failing when these guys could use that money to succeed?
#21 Dec 05 2008 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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I was talking about this with my father this morning. Why do they keep insisting that no one will buy from them if they declare bankruptcy?
#22 Dec 05 2008 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Nadenu wrote:
I was talking about this with my father this morning. Why do they keep insisting that no one will buy from them if they declare bankruptcy?


Why, because obviously people will lose confidence!

Dumbasses.

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#23 Dec 05 2008 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I read Chrysler's because I am biased toward purchasing their vehicles.

It may well be all fluff, but it appears they are already on the right track and just need the money to continue improvement. They are willing to undergo mandatory audits/inspections and repay the loan in full if they do not comply with the loan agreements. And payback $1 billion in 3 years.

If the other 2 would come up with something comparable it would probably pass with full support.

GM is going to be the anchor pulling the others down, they are requesting like 60% of the total debt. They are in such horrible shape, they would pretty much have to start from scratch. A bailout should not be an IPO.

#24 Dec 05 2008 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
And for people who want their hot rods: http://www.teslamotors.com/


Tesla stopped production of all vehicles because they too are almost bankrupt.


http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN3130815920081031

Well appears the owner personally guaranteed the first shipment of vehicles but who knows after that. They got a private bailout ...

#25 Dec 05 2008 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Nay.

Let them rot.

Give the investment money to these guys instead. At least they have the right ideas.

Aptera: http://www.aptera.com/
I'm concerned how it will do in the snow. Smiley: tongue

The point being however; us Americans like our cars. We'll keep buying them, and companies will keep making them, and people will keep working for those companies - it doesn't have to be GM, Ford and Chrysler.
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#26 Dec 05 2008 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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American's cannot good build cars, let them fail and then you can have decent european/Asian cars that do more than 10mpg and we don't have footballers importing crappy American gas guzzlers.

Win/win.
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