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Will the Lizard People rule collectively?Follow

#27 Nov 20 2008 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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This has to be a joke...if they fully shaded the box for one and put a small dot, probably by accident, in another, how the hell would that show intent to vote for the other?


They're grasping at straws...
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I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#28 Nov 20 2008 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Driftwood the Eccentric wrote:
This has to be a joke...if they fully shaded the box for one and put a small dot, probably by accident, in another, how the hell would that show intent to vote for the other?


They're grasping at straws...


Any erroneous marks should void the ballot, period, no exceptions, and this would eliminate all of these "grasping at straws" arguements.

If people want to vote, they should follow the rules. I don't care if they are old or too retarded to understand them. And wash your ******* hands before you vote.
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#29 Nov 20 2008 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Fair enough, but what about the argument about the one shaded with pencil? or the thumbprint? Not to mention that if say, someone went to shade in the box for their chosen candidate, and they happened to slip a bit(shaky hands perhaps? maybe because they were old, or had parkinsons, etc.) and make a dot or a line elsewhere on the ballot, I don't think that they just give out new ballots(at least they don't up here). Same goes for the eraser one, they accidentally shaded the wrong one(again, old and bad eyes maybe?) and erased it to shade in the one they wanted.

Edited, Nov 20th 2008 7:09pm by Driftwood
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The World Is Not A Cold Dead Place.
Alan Watts wrote:
I am omnipotent insofar as I am the Universe, but I am not an omnipotent in the role of Alan Watts, only cunning


Eske wrote:
I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#30 Nov 20 2008 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Driftwood the Eccentric wrote:
Fair enough, but what about the argument about the one shaded with pencil?


When I voted, they provided Black Pens. And the instructions clearly said in large bold lettering at the front of the ballot "USE ONLY BLUE OR BLACK INK".

Follow the rules or it won't count, easiest way to solve any questionable ballots. Unless the rules say you can use #2 Pencil... don't use Pencils.


Driftwood the Eccentric wrote:
or the thumbprint?


TirithRR wrote:
And wash your @#%^ing hands before you vote.


Seriously, I voted right after work, where I was crawling in a pit filled with old hydraulic oil, grease, boron nitrate powder, liquid graphite sludge, right underneath a 600lb + chunk of steel that is 800F.

I went to the polls, and voted, without leaving any smudges on my ballot.


Driftwood the Eccentric wrote:
Not to mention that if say, someone went to shade in the box for their chosen candidate, and they happened to slip a bit(shaky hands perhaps? maybe because they were old, or had parkinsons, etc.) and make a dot or a line elsewhere on the ballot, I don't think that they just give out new ballots(at least they don't up here). Same goes for the eraser one, they accidentally shaded the wrong one(again, old and bad eyes maybe?) and erased it to shade in the one they wanted.


They will void the ballot and give you a new one if there is a ***** up. I can say with 99% certainty that they would have given you a new one had you messed up.

Driftwood: "I sneezed and now my ballot is kinda ruined."
Poll Worker #5: "I'm sorry sir, you don't get to vote today, you disgust me."
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#31 Nov 20 2008 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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I have a friend with Parkinson's who is confident that his votes get "scrutinized" every time due to extra marks. There are lots of legit reasons for extraneous marks. It's part of the process.
#32 Nov 20 2008 at 4:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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@ Tirith, it really is better for them to use their judgement when there are extra markings.

It's both lazy and not encouraging to the democratic process when you reject a vote outright because you could only be 90% sure the vote was accurate instead of 99% sure.

What is your problem with the extra marks? Do you think it is some sort of attempt at voter fraud?



Edited, Nov 20th 2008 6:52pm by trickybeck
#33 Nov 20 2008 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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baelnic wrote:
I have a friend with Parkinson's who is confident that his votes get "scrutinized" every time due to extra marks. There are lots of legit reasons for extraneous marks. It's part of the process.


US CODE: TITLE 42, CHAPTER 20, SUBCHAPTER I-B, § 1973aa–6

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#34 Nov 20 2008 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:
@ Tirith, it really is better for them to use their judgement when there are extra markings.

It's both lazy and not encouraging to the democratic process when you reject a vote outright because you could only be 90% sure the vote was accurate instead of 99% sure.

What is your problem with the extra marks? Do you think it is some sort of attempt at voter fraud?


It's annoys me to see them have to question the intent of the voter because some idiot circled the optical scanning block on the edge of the paper rather than spend the time to read the instructions and fill in the bubble.

There is plenty of help offered to help anyone understand how to vote. There's no reason to not follow the rules listed.

Why sort through each improperly filled out ballot and have to deal with sore losers questioning every ballot with improper marks. Just dispose of them.
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#35 Nov 20 2008 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, well if it's annoying to Tirith that a few election officials have to do a few extra days of work, then it's definitely justified.


#36 Nov 20 2008 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
US CODE: TITLE 42, CHAPTER 20, SUBCHAPTER I-B, § 1973aa–6


He's aware. You can take a lot of things from a man, pride isn't one of them.
#37 Nov 20 2008 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:

Oh, well if it's annoying to Tirith that a few election officials have to do a few extra days of work, then it's definitely justified.


Ya... ignore the rules printed on the ballot, just let them fill it out how ever they wish and leave it up to the person counting to decide what was meant.
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#38 Nov 20 2008 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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baelnic wrote:
Quote:
US CODE: TITLE 42, CHAPTER 20, SUBCHAPTER I-B, § 1973aa–6


He's aware. You can take a lot of things from a man, pride isn't one of them.


BS. (And not the degree).
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#39 Nov 20 2008 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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So, you still have no actual reason, then? K.


#40 Nov 20 2008 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:

So, you still have no actual reason, then? K.




Are you that thick? The written rules on the ballot are reason alone.

The only reason you provide is "but, but, it's not nice to those who made a mistake!".
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#41 Nov 20 2008 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Are you that thick? The written rules on the ballot are reason alone.
Minnesota law allows the election officials to examine ballots to attempt to determine intent, however. In a recount, it's required.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#42 Nov 20 2008 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
baelnic wrote:
Quote:
US CODE: TITLE 42, CHAPTER 20, SUBCHAPTER I-B, § 1973aa–6


He's aware. You can take a lot of things from a man, pride isn't one of them.


BS. (And not the degree).


Not BS. There are several things I am allow to ask help for, but rarely do. Both Jonwin and I stood in line for over 30 minutes this election, before we gave in and ask for seats. When one has a handicap, one does everything possible without help when one can. It becomes a matter of pride to still be able to do somethings on ones own. So if I could have stood long enough in line and waited to vote as someone without a disability does, I would have.

There is enough sigma still among the general public against people who are disable that those of us with invisible handicaps, do try to appear normal most of the time.


edit as little things like the difference in how on and one is spelt get me. Spelt is easy to remember, unlike though, thought and that other word.


Edited, Nov 20th 2008 9:24pm by ElneClare
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#43 Nov 20 2008 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
trickybeck wrote:

So, you still have no actual reason, then? K.




Are you that thick? The written rules on the ballot are reason alone.

The only reason you provide is "but, but, it's not nice to those who made a mistake!".

The rules of how to fill in the circles on the ballot aren't laws. They're protocols.

And we have already established that the actual law provides for determination of intent.

#44 Nov 20 2008 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
trickybeck wrote:

So, you still have no actual reason, then? K.




Are you that thick? The written rules on the ballot are reason alone.

The only reason you provide is "but, but, it's not nice to those who made a mistake!".

The rules of how to fill in the circles on the ballot aren't laws. They're protocols.

And we have already established that the actual law provides for determination of intent.



Yes, the law states that they can be scrutinized for intent. But the question posed to me is why I felt they should be disposed of instead. I gave my answer.

All I was saying why I felt that they shouldn't bother counting the erroneous ones.

If you're going to ask why I don't think the law is right, then turn around and support the law because it's the law, why bother asking why I don't think it's right in the first place.

If you don't agree with my reasons, fine. If you agree with the reasons they supported the laws, fine. But don't just say "The laws says they must, so that's why it's the right thing to do!"

Like this:
Jophiel wrote:
The intent of the law is obvious -- they feel that anyone who voted should have their vote accurately counted if it's at all possible.


At least Joph didn't just say "the law says they have to".

Edited, Nov 20th 2008 9:38pm by TirithRR
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#45 Nov 20 2008 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Yes, the law states that they can be scrutinized for intent.
Actually, it says that they must be. Per the Minnesota Election Law Recount Guide (PDF):
The Guide wrote:
13.0 DETERMINING VOTER INTENT
Minnesota law requires that every effort be made to accurately count all votes on a ballot. This means that a ballot or vote must not be rejected for a technicality if it is possible to decide what the voter intended, even though the voter may have made a mistake or the ballot is damaged. Intent is determined only from the face of the ballot.
The intent of the law is obvious -- they feel that anyone who voted should have their vote accurately counted if it's at all possible.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#46 Nov 20 2008 at 7:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you don't agree with my reasons, fine. If you agree with the reasons they supported the laws, fine. But don't just say "The laws says they must, so that's why it's the right thing to do!"

This from mister "the rules are printed on the ballot, so that's why throwing it away is the right thing to do!"
Smiley: laughSmiley: laugh

#47 Nov 20 2008 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:
Quote:
If you don't agree with my reasons, fine. If you agree with the reasons they supported the laws, fine. But don't just say "The laws says they must, so that's why it's the right thing to do!"

This from mister "the rules are printed on the ballot, so that's why throwing it away is the right thing to do!"
Smiley: laughSmiley: laugh



It's not the same.

The "must check for intent" law is what is in question, not the rules for filling out the ballot.


Question:
Why must we support this law that calls for checking the intent on erroneous ballots?

Your answer:
We shoud, because the law says so.

My answer:
We shouldn't, because the directions for filling the ballot are clearly laid out, support is provided for those who may have difficulty understanding it, and support is offered for those who may have difficulty filling it out on their own due to disabilities. There is no reason to not fill it out correctly.



If the question had been, "Why should people follow the rules printed on the ballots". And I answered "Because the rules are printed on the ballots", then that would be the same as what your answer was. But obviously that isn't the question. (The correct answer though would be "Because having uniformity in the way the ballots are filled eliminate misunderstandings and errors during counting.)

Edited, Nov 20th 2008 11:14pm by TirithRR
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#48 Nov 20 2008 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're still calling them "rules" as if this were the SATs, and people were trying to go back and finish a section that was already completed. They're not "rules" to prevent cheating, they're protocols designed so that the machines and/or people can interpret the ballots easily.

#49 Nov 20 2008 at 8:25 PM Rating: Default
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trickybeck wrote:

You're still calling them "rules" as if this were the SATs, and people were trying to go back and finish a section that was already completed. They're not "rules" to prevent cheating, they're protocols designed so that the machines and/or people can interpret the ballots easily.



Your point?

Rules, Directions, Guides, Guidelines. They are all synonyms.
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#50 Nov 20 2008 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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Furthermore, I already gave a reason that you have chosen to ignore. A reason that I think was a bit more practical than your personal annoyance reason.



#51 Nov 20 2008 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Rules, Directions, Guides, Guidelines. They are all synonyms.

Smiley: laugh
Not precisely.

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