Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Economic impact of Prop 8Follow

#1 Nov 07 2008 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
Nexa
*****
12,065 posts
Another take on the issue.

Demise of Same-Sex Weddings Disheartens Businesses

Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO — A week before Election Day, Christopher Burnett’s floral shop filled an order for one of the many same-sex weddings he has worked in the last five months: eight corsages, a dozen boutonnieres and two bouquets for the two brides, each with three dozen roses.
Skip to next paragraph
Enlarge This Image
Jim Wilson/The New York Times

Kard Zone, a card shop in the Castro district of San Francisco, displayed items that had been popular with gay couples.
Related
Bans in 3 States on Gay Marriage (November 6, 2008)

Now, Mr. Burnett said, since Tuesday’s voter approval of Proposition 8, which amended the state’s Constitution to recognize only marriages between men and women, that type of business is gone.

“I have done a gay wedding every week,” he said. “And so it’s very disheartening, because other business is very slow.”

Even as opponents of the measure officially conceded defeat on Thursday, California business owners — particularly those in the marriage business — were trying to determine how many wedding cakes would now go unsold and how many tuxedos unrented.

Arturo Cobos, a manager at Kard Zone in the city’s traditionally gay Castro neighborhood, said he had done “big sales” of same-sex wedding cards and other trinkets since marriages began in June, but had recently stopped stocking new goods.

“We were afraid that they would pass Proposition 8,” Mr. Bobos said, “and that’s exactly what happened.”

In Palm Springs, another gay-friendly city, Mayor Steve Pougnet said he had performed 115 same-sex weddings since June, when such ceremonies began, some of which had as many as 180 guests. By contrast, this week the city has canceled eight planned ceremonies.

“That’s a huge economic impact, which is gone in these difficult economic times,” said Mr. Pougnet, who is openly gay and married his partner in September.

Another mayor, Gavin Newsom of San Francisco, was blunt.

“It’s a great day for Massachusetts,” Mr. Newsom said, referring to one of only two remaining states to allow same-sex marriage. The other, Connecticut, legalized such unions in October.

The approval of Proposition 8 comes even as the state is suffering through another bout of bad economic news. On Thursday, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who opposed Proposition 8, in part on economic grounds, announced that the state’s budget deficit had already swelled to $11.2 billion for the coming year, and called the Legislature back into session and proposed higher taxes to address the budget problems.

David Paisley, a San Francisco-based marketing executive with a specialty in gay tourism, said California had four of the nation’s top 10 destinations for gay travelers: San Francisco, Palm Springs, Los Angeles and San Diego.

Mr. Paisley said that it was too early to speculate on the exact economic impact of Proposition 8, but that some public relations damage might have already been done.

“California has always been perceived on the vanguard of gay-friendly destinations,” he said. “Well, when a ballot measure passes says it’s not, it’s terrible publicity for gay and lesbian tourism.”

Frank Schubert, the campaign manager for Protect Marriage, the leading group behind Proposition 8, said any potential impact, or the specter of bad press, was overstated.

“This is an issue of restoring the institution of marriage as it always existed,” said Mr. Schubert, noting that same-sex marriage had only briefly been legal. “I can’t imagine that returning to the history of 4,000 years before that is going to cause an economic upheaval.”

In June, the Williams Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles, which studies sexual orientation and the law, estimated that legalizing same-sex ceremonies in the state would result in about $63.8 million in government tax and fee revenue over three years.

Several civil rights and gay rights groups said Thursday that they had asked the State Supreme Court, which legalized same-sex marriage in May, to bar the carrying out of Proposition 8, which went into effect as soon as the result of the referendum was known. San Francisco tourism officials, meanwhile, said they would continue to push the city as a destination for “commitment ceremonies and other celebrations of partnership.”

All of which gave a small measure of hope to merchants like Mr. Burnett, who said he would miss the extra work. “Unless,” he said, “we get gay marriages back.”


Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#2 Nov 07 2008 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
So we can blame the recession on the hidebound individuals who take away rights and equality! Sweet!
#3 Nov 07 2008 at 7:10 AM Rating: Excellent
Tracer Bullet
*****
12,636 posts

Joe the Florist can't buy his business now :(

#4REDACTED, Posted: Nov 07 2008 at 7:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Minimal in the face of every other economic calamity Kalifornia is facing. Besides, gays couples would just spend their disposable income on Astroglide, a product with a miniscule profit margin...
#5 Nov 07 2008 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
The Article wrote:
“This is an issue of restoring the institution of marriage as it always existed,” said Mr. Schubert, noting that same-sex marriage had only briefly been legal. “I can’t imagine that returning to the history of 4,000 years before that is going to cause an economic upheaval.”


Seriously, 4,000 years ago??

So I can now have a daughter and trust my husband to sell her to the highest bidder the moment she hits puberty? We're bringing back the "rule of thumb" law, that states a husband can only beat his wife with a stick no thicker than the thickness of his thumb?

What an moran.
#6 Nov 07 2008 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
Considering that for 3900 of those 4000 years the institution was put in place as a contract for the distribution of property among descendents, I'm not impressed.

It was never the "core family value" it is elevated to today. It was nothing more than a glorified way of pretending you were pretty sure who was supposed to get the house when you died.
#7 Nov 07 2008 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
Actually, it's hard to say what marriage consisted of 4000 years ago. There's not much on the record until Greece and Rome, both of which recognized formal same-sex pairings. In fact in pre-Christian Rome, from whom we got modern structure of civil marriage, same-sex marriages were available and recognized.

Truly modern marriages are an artifact of the 16th century, with legal frameworks and recognition not coming about until the 18th century in an effort to make sure marriage fees could be collected by the local gummint. Smiley: lol
#8 Nov 07 2008 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,781 posts
Government should limit itself to issuing a license for two adults to legally join households (civil unions I guess) and get out of the business of 'marriage' all together.

____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#9 Nov 07 2008 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
The Article wrote:
“This is an issue of restoring the institution of marriage as it always existed,” said Mr. Schubert, noting that same-sex marriage had only briefly been legal. “I can’t imagine that returning to the history of 4,000 years before that is going to cause an economic upheaval.”


Seriously, 4,000 years ago??

So I can now have a daughter and trust my husband to sell her to the highest bidder the moment she hits puberty? We're bringing back the "rule of thumb" law, that states a husband can only beat his wife with a stick no thicker than the thickness of his thumb?

What an moran.


Um... The guy was saying that adding some additional marriage customers for 4 months and then returning back to the same base we've had all along isn't exactly a financial disaster...

These businesses should be happy that they got a minor economic boon for a few months. You've got to really have a "glass is half empty" viewpoint to see this otherwise.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#10 Nov 07 2008 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
***
3,829 posts
gbaji wrote:
These businesses should be happy that they got a minor economic boon for a few months. You've got to really have a "glass is half empty" viewpoint to see this otherwise.


Well, in that case, the wealthiest 1% should be grateful for their temporary windfall when Bush's tax cuts are repealed.

After all, good reasonable citizens must adopt a "glass is half full" mentality about the fact that they no longer have income they once had.
#11 Nov 07 2008 at 7:13 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Ambrya wrote:
gbaji wrote:
These businesses should be happy that they got a minor economic boon for a few months. You've got to really have a "glass is half empty" viewpoint to see this otherwise.


Well, in that case, the wealthiest 1% should be grateful for their temporary windfall when Bush's tax cuts are repealed.


There are so many differences between those two that it's a laughable comparison.

Taxes are something that are taken away from you. Any amount is a burden. Reducing that burden is always good, while increasing it is always bad.

Something that increases your customer base temporarily is good. Taking away that temporary increase is relatively "bad", but in the larger picture is just a status quo thing. You didn't lose any money, you just not making extra.


But it doesn't surprise me that a liberal can't tell the difference between having less taken from someone versus having more given to you. Amazing how often that little difference of viewpoint crops up, isn't it?

Quote:
After all, good reasonable citizens must adopt a "glass is half full" mentality about the fact that they no longer have income they once had.


Increasing someone's income temporarily is not the same as lowering someone's taxes temporarily. Again. For a number of reasons...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#12 Nov 07 2008 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
10,601 posts
Quote:
Taxes are something that are taken away from you. Any amount is a burden. Reducing that burden is always good, while increasing it is always bad.
oh come on, taxes are necessary, and not evil. I like having streets, healthcare, and I don't really feel paying for it is a burden. I suppose it would be nice to get a free lunch, but I don't resent paying for it.
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
#13 Nov 07 2008 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
Repressed Memories
******
21,027 posts
gbaji wrote:
There are so many differences between those two that it's a laughable comparison.

Taxes are something that are taken away from you. Any amount is a burden. Reducing that burden is always good, while increasing it is always bad.

Something that increases your customer base temporarily is good. Taking away that temporary increase is relatively "bad", but in the larger picture is just a status quo thing. You didn't lose any money, you just not making extra.

No... money not gained is money lost. Every component profiteer recognizes the existence of opportunity costs.
Sir Xsarus wrote:
oh come on, taxes are necessary, and not evil. I like having streets, health care, and I don't really feel paying for it is a burden. I suppose it would be nice to get a free lunch, but I don't resent paying for it.

In this instance he's not commenting on the diffuse gain of taxes, but the specific individual burden. Ceteris paribus I am always better off having less taxes than more. Gbaji is correct on this.

Edited, Nov 7th 2008 9:53pm by Allegory
#14 Nov 07 2008 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
Ceteris paribus I am always better off having less taxes than more.
Is this where the trite and overused statement of "money can't buy happiness" would be appropriate?
#15 Nov 07 2008 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Allegory wrote:
No... money not gained is money lost. Every component profiteer recognizes the existence of opportunity costs.


Certainly. But there's a difference between money you actually had that was taken away from you (taxes changing), and money you might have had but didn't get (opportunities changing).

There's also a matter of the degree of separation between the action and the result. Raising or lowering taxes on a group has a direct result which is the intention of the tax change. So it's correct to evaluate the impact in a direct one-step relational way.

The opportunity cost/benefit of having gay marriage legal or illegal is a second-step relationship. The change that creates or removes that opportunity is separate from the financial gain or loss. There are other reasons and issues involved than just the shop owners opportunities.

If I were to claim, for example, that it's an unfair burden on the same shop owners that polygamy is illegal, arguing that more brides would result and therefore more business (and on the most expensive group!), I'd technically be correct. However, that's not by itself a good reason to change the laws in order to allow polygamy. I think we can all see that the change to the shop-owners potential profit is secondary to the change being made.

With the taxes, the change is a direct effect. Choosing to allow tax breaks to expire is a choice that has one effect: Making people pay more taxes than they did before you made that choice.

Again. Completely different situations.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#16 Nov 07 2008 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
21,027 posts
gbaji wrote:
Certainly. But there's a difference between money you actually had that was taken away from you (taxes changing), and money you might have had but didn't get (opportunities changing).

Only psychologically. It is easier to see what you have directly lost than to see what you have not gained.

It is an acceptable argument to assert that the gain to society may be worth the loss to the vendors as you go on to say, just as outlawing cocaine is worth the loss to the drug dealers, but you cannot argue that they have suffered no financial loss.

Taking away their business opportunity is no different financially for them than allowing gay marriages and then taxing them the exact difference or allowing gay marriages and letting them be robbed for the exact difference.
#17 Nov 07 2008 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,512 posts
gbaji wrote:
These businesses should be happy that they got a minor economic boon for a few months. You've got to really have a "glass is half empty" viewpoint to see this otherwise.


So it's ok to take business away during an economic situation that would certainly affect a flower shop (I know they have sporadic business when it isn't some holiday, but Joe and Sue aren't going to be buying as many bouquets or arrangements for their wedding), because heck, they got a boom for a period of time!

I understand the different view here, but I don't think, separate from everything involving same-sex marriage, that it would ever be right to pass a law that would affect a business so much.
#18 Nov 10 2008 at 6:13 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Allegory wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Certainly. But there's a difference between money you actually had that was taken away from you (taxes changing), and money you might have had but didn't get (opportunities changing).

Only psychologically. It is easier to see what you have directly lost than to see what you have not gained.


I disagree. The concept of property rights kinda has to enter into the equation somewhere. You own what you own, right now. Period. If someone takes that away, you've lost something. But if someone simply prevents you from gaining something more, it's absolutely not the same thing.

If a parent does not buy a child a bike for Christmas, it's not the same as a parent taking a bike away from the child. Only if you take a very broad philosophical view of "child has bike or doesn't" do those end up equating. But most of us live in a real world where we count things we actually own as more important than things we might have owned.

You're correct to term this a loss of opportunity, but I still think it's significant to distinguish between that and an actual loss of property. Certainly taxes are not equivalent to a loss of opportunity.

Quote:
It is an acceptable argument to assert that the gain to society may be worth the loss to the vendors as you go on to say, just as outlawing cocaine is worth the loss to the drug dealers, but you cannot argue that they have suffered no financial loss.


IMO that's another argument on top of the first.

I happen to hold a view there should be extra weight given to not taking things people already have from them as a standard in addition to balancing the sociological costs and benefits of the situation. I think if we fail to do that, it leads us to think that a benefit given to one person is balanced with a cost endured by someone else. Now, if we're looking at benefits programs and assessing whether one group gains something or another group does, this is a valid equivalence. But if we're balancing the benefit gained by one group against a cost incurred by another, that should *not* be considered equivalent.

Yet, far too often, they are...

Quote:
Taking away their business opportunity is no different financially for them than allowing gay marriages and then taxing them the exact difference or allowing gay marriages and letting them be robbed for the exact difference.


Only if the end is the only thing that matters. Some of us consider the means by which we arrive at a result to be important as well.

If your logic was valid, then there'd be no difference between me robbing you and taking 100 dollars from you, and you deciding to give me 100 dollars of your own free will. The end result is that you lose 100 bucks and I gain that same amount, but I think we can both agree that no one would judge those two processes equally.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 214 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (214)