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Dulce Et Decorum EstFollow

#1 Nov 06 2008 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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On the 5th of September 1914, my Great Grandfather's older brother Frank walked from his home in Battersea, South London to a Recruiting Station in Camberwell. He was a 'Carman' - he drove a horsedrawn trolleybus around London to support his wife and 5 children, but chose to join the war for King & Country. It was 5 weeks before his 31st Birthday.

He shipped out to France and endured horrors I'd not care to contemplate. He was briefly invalided back to England in 1915 - mustard gas & 'shell shock' (now known as PTSD). After 2 weeks R'n'R he shipped back to the trenches.

He survived the first 2 battles of Ypres, but went 'over the top' in Belgium on 31st July 1917 (at Pilckem Ridge). He was killed, and his remains never found.

I've known this for some years, but while preparing for our Rememberance Sunday events this weekend, today I received this response to a request I'd sent to the National Archives:

Screenshot

Wilfred Owen wrote:
Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.


Whether soldiers, saliors or pilots are sent to a just or unjust war, whether today or generations ago, whether willingly or conscripted, dead or living, I take off my hat to them all.

Edited, Nov 6th 2008 5:52pm by Nobby
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#2 Nov 06 2008 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
This made me think of my grandfather. Even though he was not in WWI. He was in WWII.
#3 Nov 06 2008 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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#4 Nov 06 2008 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Bring the boys back home
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#5 Nov 06 2008 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
Great song by the way.
#6 Nov 06 2008 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not one for prayer or biblical stuff, but i always say this from the heart for those lost or grown wearly of the mortal coil having once served aboard a vessel of war no matter what side it was on.

Royal navy rememberance day prayer wrote:
O Eternal Lord God,
who rulest the raging of the sea;
who has compassed the waters with bounds
until day and night come to an end;
be pleased to receive into Thy almighty and most gracious protection
the persons of us Thy servants,
and the Fleet in which we serve.

Preserve us from the dangers of the sea,
and from the violence of the enemy;
that we may be a safeguard unto our most gracious Sovereign Lady,
Queen Elizabeth, and her Dominions,
and a security for such as pass upon the seas upon their lawful occasions;
that the inhabitants of our Commonwealth may in peace and quietness
serve Thee our God;
and that we may return in safety
to enjoy the blessings of the land,
with the fruits of our labours,
and with a thankful remembrance of Thy mercies
to praise and glorify Thy Holy Name;
Amen.

They shall not grow old as we who are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.
#7 Nov 06 2008 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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I remember as a college student reading the work of a poet who died in WWI. I can't remember the poem or their name, but found this site honoring UK's Poets of WWI.

On this site one can find many of their poems.


Quote:
Anthem for Doomed Youth

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries for them; no prayers nor bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs,--
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys, but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

Wilfred Owen


Having just read letters from 9 year olds in Harlem, to Pres. Elect Obama I been moved to tears by the contrast.Smiley: cry
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This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#8 Nov 07 2008 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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Nobby, that is one of the finest written and best poems I've ever read.

It's last lines also capture what I was taught was the pivotal idea and happening that separates the Modern historical era from all eras before that: the loss of the belief that violence and fighting is the way to acquire glory, personal respect and social status, and the loss of respect and trust by the lower classes for the ruling class. The horrors of WWI and the incompetency of some commanders there is the acknowledged cause of British Colonials living in Australia stopping thinking of themselves as British and starting thinking of themselves as Australian. We mark the birth of the Australian identity as the series of battles at Gallipoli.

I want to share Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land" which isn't such fine poetry but certainly is very emotional. I grew up with that song, and although I'm a terrible singer, I sung it as a child for a group of my parent's friends who had an impromptu musical evening after dinner one night. They were moved by the song.

a Youtube version of his, I'm too emotional to find a good version of the full English version. http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=mUzQ6Am-bbc&feature=related

1. Well, how do you do, Private William McBride,
Do you mind if I sit down here by your graveside?
And rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
I've been walking all day, and I'm nearly done.
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
Well, I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

cho: Did they Beat the drum slowly, did the play the pipes lowly?
Did the rifles fir o'er you as they lowered you down?
Did the bugles sound The Last Post in chorus?
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some loyal heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you always 19?
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?

3. The sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard that's still No Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

4. And I can't help but wonder, now Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause?'
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.

Edited, Nov 7th 2008 4:44am by Aripyanfar
#9 Nov 07 2008 at 4:10 AM Rating: Good
Aripyanfar wrote:
1. Well, how do you do, Private William McBride,
Do you mind if I sit down here by your graveside?
And rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
I've been walking all day, and I'm nearly done.
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
Well, I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

cho: Did they Beat the drum slowly, did the play the pipes lowly?
Did the rifles fir o'er you as they lowered you down?
Did the bugles sound The Last Post in chorus?
Did the pipes play the Flowers of the Forest?

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some loyal heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you always 19?
Or are you a stranger without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?

3. The sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard that's still No Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

4. And I can't help but wonder, now Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you 'The Cause?'
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.


I only knew the Dropkick Murphys' version of this song, didn't even realise it wasn't theirs Smiley: frown.

Beautiful poem, anyway...
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#10 Nov 07 2008 at 4:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I think this one is fitting:

Anthem for Doomed Youth (1917)

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries now for them, no prayers nor bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs,
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires...

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall,
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds;
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds...

- Willfred Owen (1893 - 1918)
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#11 Nov 07 2008 at 6:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Is it more sweet to die for one's country than to simply die...like in a car wreck or something?
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#12 Nov 07 2008 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
Is it more sweet to die for one's country than to simply die...like in a car wreck or something?


Not necessarily, but there is something incredibly tragic and unsettling about 18 year old kids being sent to their death in a pointless war. I guess it sums up the neatly the horrors mankind is capable of inflicting on itself.

I read the diaries of WWI soldiers in the trenches, and it was heart-breaking. The contrast between the sheer horror of what they suffered, coupled with the absurdity of the war they were fighting, is the essence of pathos. The fact they were sent there by old men in suits who followed the war from their desks, and that this mechanism is being constantly repeated the world over since the beggining of time, only makes it more powerful, and pathetic. It's the mixture of absurdity, innocence, and horror which I find so unsettling, and horrifying.

Well, that's my take on it anyway.
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#13 Nov 07 2008 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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I remember when I was a younger man
we were soldiers fighting in a foreign land
now I'm older, and it's happening again....


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#14 Nov 07 2008 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Is it more sweet to die for one's country than to simply die...like in a car wreck or something?
It is always more fulfilling to die for a cause you believe in than in an accident.

Just ask the muslim extremists, or if you don't like to admit that they are dying for a cause, then countless other selfless acts of bravery by people who knew that their acts could result in death.

Edited, Nov 7th 2008 10:50am by tarv
#15 Nov 07 2008 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
I remember when I was a younger man
we were soldiers fighting in a foreign land
now I'm older, and it's happening again....


Reminds me of the song by The Farm about the December 1914 incident when the Brits and ze Chermans ignored their officers, laid down their weapons and played football against each other inbetween the trench lines.

The Farm wrote:
Remember boy that your forefather's died
Lost in millions for a country's pride
But they never mention the trenches of Belgium
When they stopped fighting and they were one

A spirit stronger than war was working that night
December 1914 cold, clear and bright
Countries' borders were right out of sight
When they joined together and decided not to fight

All together now
All together now
All together now, in no man's land

All together now
All together now
All together now, in no man's land

The same old story again
All those tears shed in vain
Nothing learnt and nothing gained
Only hope remains

All together now
All together now
All together now
In no man's land
All together now
All together now
All together now
In no man's land .....

The boys had their say they said no
Stop the slaughter let's go home,
let's go, let's go
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#16 Nov 07 2008 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Baron von tarv wrote:
Quote:
Is it more sweet to die for one's country than to simply die...like in a car wreck or something?
It is always more fulfilling to die for a cause you believe in than in an accident.
But is it?...How can anyone know from this side of the grave.

It's an unsettling argument to be sure, but when we attempt to justify death, or even give it adjectives such as 'sweet' I can't help but think that it's 'us' the survivors trying to unload some guilt and may not reflect at all the way the victim might describe their own death.

Sorry Nobby, no disrespect intended to your thread or particularly your Great Grand Uncle. /salute
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#17 Nov 07 2008 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
It's the mixture of absurdity, innocence, and horror which I find so unsettling, and horrifying.
Yes.
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#18 Nov 07 2008 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But is it?...How can anyone know from this side of the grave.
All i can go on is the reaction to the question: Is it worth dying for?

Most soldiers would answer yes if asked if thier country was worth dying for, I doubt any drivers would respond the same way about thier trip to work.
#19 Nov 07 2008 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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Nobby thats an incredible document. Its a terrible shame he was killed Smiley: frown

It was my pleasure to meet a war veteran during the week. I was buying a Poppy and we made some small talk over the Poppies. It was only when I saw his Poppy that I noticed he had a pin attached to it. He told me it was a regimental pin from his time serving in WW2.
Its not often you meet one of the many who risked their life for the sake of the freedoms we now enjoy. I thanked him from my heart for serving us all. His reply made me laugh "I'm not sure I fought for those who now run the country!".

My heart and thanks goes to those in IRAQ and Afghanistan who serve us now.
#20 Nov 07 2008 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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Baron von tarv wrote:
Quote:
But is it?...How can anyone know from this side of the grave.
All i can go on is the reaction to the question: Is it worth dying for?

Most soldiers would answer yes if asked if thier country was worth dying for, I doubt any drivers would respond the same way about thier trip to work.

WIlfred Owen's poem is saying that it is NOT sweet to die for your country. That the old saying is a lie. It's a point of view common to WWI soldiers by the end of the war. Many of them signed up for the war with patriotic ideals glowing in their hearts, but were broken by the horrors of the war, and turned cynical from the horror.

They lost their conviction that protecting their country was worth any price, and any cost.

While I'm sure they would have volunteered to fight fiercely for their loved ones, from that point on, they had lost the voluntary will to protect their own government, because they felt their own government had betrayed them and betrayed humanity unforgivably.
#21 Nov 07 2008 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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NPR had a good show earlier this week about this.

http://www.npr.org/programs/wesun/features/2003/apr/war_poetry/
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#22 Nov 07 2008 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only GwynapNud wrote:

My heart and thanks goes to those in IRAQ and Afghanistan who serve us now.

Absolutely. I didn't support us going into Iraq, but I utterly support all the soldiers and civilians serving there, and in Afganistan. I hope for "victory", I wish them well, and pray they come home safely.
#23 Nov 07 2008 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
Is it more sweet to die for one's country than to simply die...like in a car wreck or something?


Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

Amarum et indecorum est a Vesuvio interfici.
#24 Nov 07 2008 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It is always more fulfilling to die for a cause you believe in than in an accident.


Unless of course it's a cause that snookered you in with false pretenses.


Second point: why did I not take latin in highschool? I know the translation of "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" because I was told when I read the poem, but I have no idea what that second phrase is.
#25 Nov 07 2008 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Baron von tarv wrote:
Quote:
But is it?...How can anyone know from this side of the grave.
All i can go on is the reaction to the question: Is it worth dying for?

Most soldiers would answer yes if asked if thier country was worth dying for, I doubt any drivers would respond the same way about thier trip to work.

WIlfred Owen's poem is saying that it is NOT sweet to die for your country. That the old saying is a lie. It's a point of view common to WWI soldiers by the end of the war. Many of them signed up for the war with patriotic ideals glowing in their hearts, but were broken by the horrors of the war, and turned cynical from the horror.

They lost their conviction that protecting their country was worth any price, and any cost.

While I'm sure they would have volunteered to fight fiercely for their loved ones, from that point on, they had lost the voluntary will to protect their own government, because they felt their own government had betrayed them and betrayed humanity unforgivably.
Yes, I had got that. Not sure where my thoughts were going except that death is death. <---period.

The poem is stabbing. It certainly creates vivid images of suffering and as you mention, betrayal. When will we learn?
Quote:
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

Amarum et indecorum est a Vesuvio interfici

Tell that to the volcanologists.

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#26 Nov 07 2008 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Baron von tarv wrote:
Quote:
But is it?...How can anyone know from this side of the grave.
All i can go on is the reaction to the question: Is it worth dying for?

Most soldiers would answer yes if asked if thier country was worth dying for, I doubt any drivers would respond the same way about thier trip to work.
Yet more are sacrificed on the roads than on the battle field. But, that's beside the point.

It will be nice one day when the thought of 'sacrificing' oneself to settle a disagreement between countrys is an absurd notion.
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