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The most incredibly stupid ignorant hateful thing I've read Follow

#327 Nov 07 2008 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I happen to believe that same-sex couples, given social safety to be outwardly ***** and have children, and the same rights to adoption, and the same economic benefits for child-rearing as hetero couples, will have children at roughly the same rate as hetero couples.
As do I as it happens but it annoys me when people accuse Gbaji of opposing things he is not.

They then utterly ignore his point of view, accuse him of ignoring thier issues when he agrees with that part of the arguement and we get 7 pages of bullsh*t.

I understand Gbaji's view on this issue, I don't agree with it but I do think it's a valid point of view, as usual certain posters have an agenda and refuse to see the other side of the arguement and spout retoric instead of addressing the oppositions genuine missgivings.

I think if they stopped pontificating for a second and actually addressed those issues, this arguement could be resolved, on this forum at least, except for Varus.
#328 Nov 07 2008 at 3:21 AM Rating: Good
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Well, at least in my case, where he has genuine misgivings I just don't agree with them actually being obstacles, or a problem. That is, I just don't agree with him.

And I apologise now for spamming-up the forum with my posts while most of you are all asleep. It's the time-zone difference. You are just going to wake up lots of days with my name at the end of all the threads. Smiley: glare

Edited, Nov 7th 2008 6:25am by Aripyanfar
#329 Nov 07 2008 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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The societal benefit for gay couples getting married is minimal


It's not, though.

The problem is that you're thinking of "cost/benefit" purely in monetary terms. That's part of the equation, but it's not the whole equation. It can't be the sole criteria for making decisions.

Secondly, marriage has become much more than simply "benefits provided by the government in order to encourage stable families and specie reproduction". Most people don't get married for the financial benefits. Some do, of course, I'm not denying that. But for most, it's an emotional issue. It's a "proof" of love, a crystalisation of their feelings. That's what marriage is about, fundamentally. That's why people still get married, even in their 60s and 70s.

And that's what gay people want.

I do think it fundamentally comes to down to discrimination. According to your reasoning, people in their 60s shouldn't be allowed to get married. Can we agree on that? In their case, the benefits to society are virtually inexistant, and they therefore shouldn't receive the benefits that marriage entails. Why do we allow over 60s to get married?

If "marriage" exists to promote stability within society, then why should that not apply to homosexuals? If "marriage" exists only in order to promote children growing up in stable homes, why do we allow non-reproductive, non-adoptional heterosexuals to get married?

One more point on this cost/benefit topic: In most of Europe, you get tax discounts for having kids, even outside of wedlock. In France, you get even more if you have 3 kids or more. I don't know if its the same in the US. But those benefits fit within the context you mention: ensuring reproduction of the specie. They don't apply to gay people, unless they adopt. It makes sense that people who don't have kids shouldn't get those specific benefits. But they are separate from the "marriage benefits" you get from government. Those are two seperate issues.

So you simply can't reduce the marriage thing to a "cost/benefit" analysis. It's simply doesn't match the reality of a)why people get married, and b)why the state allows them to marry.

Finally, the point of life is happiness. The point of government is to give its citizens the tools necessary to pursue that happiness. Making gay marriage illegal reduces the happiness of some its citizen, for a minuscule benefit of 0.000001% less government expenditure. Not only that, but it perpetuates a myth that somehow homosexuals are "different" from heterosexuals, which encourages discriminatory behaviour.
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#330 Nov 07 2008 at 5:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxx wrote:
Secondly, marriage has become much more than simply "benefits provided by the government in order to encourage stable families and specie reproduction". Most people don't get married for the financial benefits. Some do, of course, I'm not denying that. But for most, it's an emotional issue. It's a "proof" of love, a crystalisation of their feelings. That's what marriage is about, fundamentally. That's why people still get married, even in their 60s and 70s.


See, that was my point. I don't know ANYONE who ever got married for insurance, benefits, kids. I'm sure they're out there, but I've never known anyone personally. I got married for love, and everyone I know that's married got married for love and/or emotional security.
#331 Nov 07 2008 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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I know, why oh why oh why did I get side-tracked by Gbaji?

People mostly marry each other for love. Same-sex couples don't get to marry each other when they love each other. It's like saying that their love isn't real, or isn't as valid as the love heterosexuals have for one another. That's wrong and it's shitty.

They ought to be allowed to marry, in exactly the same way that heterosexuals can get married.
#332 Nov 07 2008 at 6:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:


Give it up already. It's over. You lost.

Totem
QUITTER!

In 1864 the vote to abolish slavery did NOT pass. American's didn't give it up so easy.

Denying people equal rights because of their sexual orientation is unconstitutional. Eventually our courts will concede.

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#333 Nov 07 2008 at 6:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Holy crap, look at this thread, you still going on?
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#334 Nov 07 2008 at 6:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I believe that the benefits provided by the legal status of marriage serve as an incentive to get heterosexual couples to marry. I believe that this is a worthwhile objective because the cost to society if too many heterosexual couples have children without being married is greater than the cost of the benefits. I also believe that since homosexual couples do not produce children as a natural consequence of being a couple, that there is no reason to apply this incentive to them. They can choose to form lasting relationships if they wish. They can choose to enter into a set of identical civil contracts if they wish. But there is no societal reason to provide them with an incentive for doing so.

Thus, I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to restrict qualification for those benefits to couples consisting of one male and one female.

Now. For the umpteeth time, I've explained why I hold my position. I'm still waiting for a similarly well thought out assessment of this from the other side.
I've given the same in other threads.

Much of society is based around the household unit. People come together to form households, whether it was their intent or not, pool their resources to be able to afford homes, cars, vacations, medical care, etc. When one member has something happen, they can rely on the other member(s) for additional support, making it less likely that they'll need to rely on government or charitable services. This pooling of resources is also beneficial to the raising of children for the obvious reasons -- kids are expensive and they don't bring anything to the table so raising one as a solo endevour is hard.

Whether folks like it or not, people of the same sex form households. These households undergo the same catastrophic incidients that heterosexual households undergo. People lose jobs, get hurt, fall ill or have some other thing happen which threatens their lives. Allowing committed same sex couples to marry means that they are equally capable of accessing the tools to keep their boats upright in these waters. This includes the full range of state and federal benefits such as accessing Medicare, Social Security, secured FMLA leave, etc. This also includes private institutions which extend benefits for married couples but are not required to extend the same benefits to same sex couples (although some may on an individual basis) such as insurance.

It is in society's best interests to strengthen these committed households by allowing them the full range of married benefits. Giving them the full range of tools to cope with catastrophic events in their lives or the lives of their partner may mean one less house in foreclosure, one less bankruptcy due to medical expenses or one less unemployed person as they try to tend to their partner. It is better for society to prevent things such as bankruptcies, foreclosures, repossessed properties as such things weaken society as a whole. Private contracts do not allow for the full range of tools to be implemented. State recognized same sex marriage doesn't. Federally sanctioned marriage does and it's the only thing that does.

This is completely ignoring the fact that, although a same sex couple may not bear children via their own union, children may indeed be brought into same sex households by various means such as adoption, fertilization outside the union, artifical fertilization within the union or blended households with existing children. These child deserve the same levels of protection in the event of a catastrophic event in their household as the "natural" children of heterosexual marriages. They deserve to gain from the benefits of their both of their parents should one die (i.e. Social Security, veteran's benefits, insurance payouts, etc) and deserve to have the full range of tools to care for them should they become ill. Both parents deserve to be able to contribute to the medical care, insurance, financial access, etc of their child. This, again, strengthens the household unit and thusly strengthens society. When a child falls ill and both parents in the household have the ability to access federally guaranteed FMLA leave to help their sick child, this is a good thing. Again, private contracts or even state-only sanctioned marriage does not provide the parents with the full range of tools to do so. Only federally sanctioned marriage does.

Same sex marriage has no detrimental effect on me. Critics may toss out phrases like "He can still get married... to a woman!" but that only proves my point. Should gay men Joe & Sam marry lesbians Sally & Mary then the supposed burden upon me is no more than if Joe married Sam and Sally married Mary. Whether or not Joe & Sam, living next to me, are married or simply cohabitating has no effect on me. But Joe & Sam's home going into foreclosure does. It is better for the nation to support and uplift same sex households in the same manner as heterosexual households because, in the end, both are the units upon which our nation is built.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#335 Nov 07 2008 at 6:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
I've given the same in other threads.

Much of society is based around the household unit. People come together to form households, whether it was their intent or not, pool their resources to be able to afford homes, cars, vacations, medical care, etc. When one member has something happen, they can rely on the other member(s) for additional support, making it less likely that they'll need to rely on government or charitable services. This pooling of resources is also beneficial to the raising of children for the obvious reasons -- kids are expensive and they don't bring anything to the table so raising one as a solo endevour is hard.

Whether folks like it or not, people of the same sex form households. These households undergo the same catastrophic incidients that heterosexual households undergo. People lose jobs, get hurt, fall ill or have some other thing happen which threatens their lives. Allowing committed same sex couples to marry means that they are equally capable of accessing the tools to keep their boats upright in these waters. This includes the full range of state and federal benefits such as accessing Medicare, Social Security, secured FMLA leave, etc. This also includes private institutions which extend benefits for married couples but are not required to extend the same benefits to same sex couples (although some may on an individual basis) such as insurance.

It is in society's best interests to strengthen these committed households by allowing them the full range of married benefits. Giving them the full range of tools to cope with catastrophic events in their lives or the lives of their partner may mean one less house in foreclosure, one less bankruptcy due to medical expenses or one less unemployed person as they try to tend to their partner. It is better for society to prevent things such as bankruptcies, foreclosures, repossessed properties as such things weaken society as a whole. Private contracts do not allow for the full range of tools to be implemented. State recognized same sex marriage doesn't. Federally sanctioned marriage does and it's the only thing that does.

This is completely ignoring the fact that, although a same sex couple may not bear children via their own union, children may indeed be brought into same sex households by various means such as adoption, fertilization outside the union, artifical fertilization within the union or blended households with existing children. These child deserve the same levels of protection in the event of a catastrophic event in their household as the "natural" children of heterosexual marriages. They deserve to gain from the benefits of their both of their parents should one die (i.e. Social Security, veteran's benefits, insurance payouts, etc) and deserve to have the full range of tools to care for them should they become ill. Both parents deserve to be able to contribute to the medical care, insurance, financial access, etc of their child. This, again, strengthens the household unit and thusly strengthens society. When a child falls ill and both parents in the household have the ability to access federally guaranteed FMLA leave to help their sick child, this is a good thing. Again, private contracts or even state-only sanctioned marriage does not provide the parents with the full range of tools to do so. Only federally sanctioned marriage does.

Same sex marriage has no detrimental effect on me. Critics may toss out phrases like "He can still get married... to a woman!" but that only proves my point. Should gay men Joe & Sam marry lesbians Sally & Mary then the supposed burden upon me is no more than if Joe married Sam and Sally married Mary. Whether or not Joe & Sam, living next to me, are married or simply cohabitating has no effect on me. But Joe & Sam's home going into foreclosure does. It is better for the nation to support and uplift same sex households in the same manner as heterosexual households because, in the end, both are the units upon which our nation is built.


Joph, ever thought about running for Prime Minister in Poland? Because the American Presidency is pretty much taken care of now, and Poland could really use some slightly progressive guy at its helm. I think you'd do a great job. Certainly better than the twins.

Just a thought. But I, for one, would welcome your candidacy. Not that I could vote, mind you, but I could create a, erm, Facebook group or something.

Let me know.
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#336 Nov 07 2008 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
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For the short version of Joph's post, see mine on page three.

I'm kidding, his is far more eloquent and well thought out. Gbaji will still ignore it.

Nexa
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#337 Nov 07 2008 at 7:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I wish I could write like Joph Smiley: crymore
#338 Nov 07 2008 at 7:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Gurue
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Aripyanfar wrote:
I wish I could write like Joph Smiley: crymore


He might write more gooder than the rest of us, but he's a filthy bunny killer. Never forget that.
#339 Nov 07 2008 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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"When Samira tells you to ask a homosexual about their personal experience, it's a perfectly legitimate line of query of proof. Since it is only ONE Eyewitness, it is not really scientific evidence, but it's more legitimate than any speculation by a non-homosexual. It's also a start along the road to scientific evidence. If the question is important to be settled, then one wants to collect more Eyewitness Accounts." --Arip

Ok, I'll accept that, but then the reverse has to be true as well, in that if a person who claims to have been a homosexual says he or she had the personal experience of becoming heterosexual then you must accept that at face value. You can't have one without the other unless you are so committed to your personal dogma of sexual politics that you refuse to accept any other points of view.

Totem
#340 Nov 07 2008 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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#341 Nov 07 2008 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
"When Samira tells you to ask a homosexual about their personal experience, it's a perfectly legitimate line of query of proof. Since it is only ONE Eyewitness, it is not really scientific evidence, but it's more legitimate than any speculation by a non-homosexual. It's also a start along the road to scientific evidence. If the question is important to be settled, then one wants to collect more Eyewitness Accounts." --Arip

Ok, I'll accept that, but then the reverse has to be true as well, in that if a person who claims to have been a homosexual says he or she had the personal experience of becoming heterosexual then you must accept that at face value. You can't have one without the other unless you are so committed to your personal dogma of sexual politics that you refuse to accept any other points of view.

Totem

Yes, I accept that.

I do think in most cases they've been pressurised into training themselves into it by religiously conservative family members, pastors and the social milieu they've been raised in or lived around.

But I can see that working, in the same way that many women in arranged marriages have been been putting up with joyless or even painful sex, then working themselves around to enjoying what they've got on their plate, for thousands of years.

I've seen some documentaries about the issue. The proponents of converting homosexual men have a theory that boys who do not receive enough love and acceptance from their fathers become gay. As part of the conversion process, they get the fathers of the gay men to sit on the sofa, and hold their gay son in their arms and rock them. The gay son usually bursts into tears and cries heavily. It's very affecting.

Edited, Nov 7th 2008 11:19am by Aripyanfar
#342 Nov 07 2008 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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RACK that, Sammy. Very fun-nay!

Totem
#343 Nov 07 2008 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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I'd be willing to give on the issue of same sex marriage if I could get abortion proponents to give on the issue of babies, based on the reasoning I supplied earlier in this thread.

It's all about sharing that political loaf of bread in that half a loaf is better than none. Yeah, I'm a giver like that. It's in my nature.
/blushes

Totem
#344 Nov 07 2008 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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Mistress Nadenu wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
I wish I could write like Joph Smiley: crymore


He might write more gooder than the rest of us, but he's a filthy bunny killer. Never forget that.


And he smells of elderberries!
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#345 Nov 07 2008 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Ok, I'll accept that, but then the reverse has to be true as well, in that if a person who claims to have been a homosexual says he or she had the personal experience of becoming heterosexual then you must accept that at face value.


I don't see why we should have any attachment to sexuality being immutable. I was convinced that I was totally asexual for a long time. Now, whether my sexuality changed or whether it was realized I don't know.
#346 Nov 07 2008 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
Aripyanfar wrote:

I've seen some documentaries about the issue. The proponents of converting homosexual men have a theory that boys who do not receive enough love and acceptance from their fathers become gay. As part of the conversion process, they get the fathers of the gay men to sit on the sofa, and hold their gay son in their arms and rock them. The gay son usually bursts into tears and cries heavily. It's very affecting.


It's interesting how all the blame is put on the absence of a father figure in a child's life when we try to pick apart the "why". It's not just homosexual men, either. When I was a teenager I was very headstrong and came out very early, which landed me in a mental institution. I remember this program where we would write about our day in a journal before bed, and our attending counselor would then read it overnight and leave us a response in the morning.

I remember once him writing in it a very simple question. "Are you a lesbian to spite your father or despite your father?" And I thought to myself "Wow, you know he never even crossed my mind?"

He really wasn't at the forefront of my thoughts when I was dealing with all these strange emotions that didn't quite match what my friends were going through.

Aside from that - I am glad to see that the general consensus of the thread is that the discrimination needs to be extinguished. The argument that taxpayers shouldn't have to support gay marriages is moot when we have been paying the same taxes for the same amount of time as any heterosexual person.

We just will never get to enjoy any of the benefits of our hard-earned money. Once you stop pushing homosexuals into the fantasy category of "not a legitimate human", the whole argument falls apart.
#347 Nov 07 2008 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
TerrainFFXI wrote:
The argument that taxpayers shouldn't have to support gay marriages is moot when we have been paying the same taxes for the same amount of time as any heterosexual person.

We just will never get to enjoy any of the benefits of our hard-earned money. Once you stop pushing homosexuals into the fantasy category of "not a legitimate human", the whole argument falls apart.


This is the argument that gbaji won't answer in response to his "why should I have to pay for it?" diatribe.
#348 Nov 07 2008 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
Belkira the Tulip wrote:

This is the argument that gbaji won't answer in response to his "why should I have to pay for it?" diatribe.


And it's really sad that he has chosen this one small part of the overall issue to hold onto and build his platform from. His posts are eloquent and he does seem to be somewhat educated, but holding to a position like this without fully understanding it seems run of the mill stupid to me.

It would make sense if homosexuals did not make the same contributions to society; if we didn't hold jobs, didn't pay taxes, didn't serve on juries, etc. But, we do, and we will continue to do so whether we are given permission to "legally" marry or not.

The bottom line and the one that nobody wants to acknowledge is that allowing homosexuals the same rights doesn't change anything for heterosexuals.

The only thing that is threatened is that personal sense of authority over other people. And you know what? We are all nobodies anyway.

Edited, Nov 7th 2008 2:14pm by TerrainFFXI
#349 Nov 07 2008 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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This is the argument that gbaji won't answer in response to his "why should I have to pay for it?" diatribe.
No it isn't Bel, at least you're over simplifying it because you don't like the idea that someone can have a legitimate gripe over something you agree with.

His arguement is: Marriage between heterosexuals is encouraged by tax breaks because it forms a stable platform for children to grow up in, failure to provide that platform would cost more to support via welfare therefore heterosexual marriage = worth subsidising.

Marriage between homosexuals should not be encouraged by tax breaks because no reason to form a stable platform for children to grow up in, since homosexual marriages do not result in children that require support, therefore homosexual marriage = not worth subsidising.

I DO NOT AGREE but at least i'm willing to try and UNDERSTAND his point!
#350 Nov 07 2008 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
This is the argument that gbaji won't answer in response to his "why should I have to pay for it?" diatribe.


He answered it. He said we pay for marriage benefits so that they'll make babies and keep our society going.

I don't like that answer, nor do I think it's a valid argument (especially in the light that there are already benefits for having children even outside of marriage) but he did answer that question.

edit - Jeez, everyone is beating me to the punch this week.

Edited, Nov 7th 2008 12:25pm by baelnic
#351 Nov 07 2008 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
TerrainFFXI wrote:
The only thing that is threatened is that personal sense of authority over other people. And you know what? We are all nobodies anyway.
It's dislike made in to policy. There's no sensible reason to exclude us. The so-called pragmatic arguments are thinner than tissue paper. All that separates us from equal standing in society is the tendency of the American polity to cling like a pitbull to something it's holding on to simply for the sake of holding on to it.

It is, as a Rabbi once described it to me, the essential failing that has plagued man since the beginning. The hubris of a man believing he is so very right that his every interpretation of God should be taken as absolute truth. The fact, he went on, is that as humans we can be sure only of one thing; that God calls on us to find his love within us and perform every mitzvah (good work) that we can. It is the one thing he has tried over the centuries to teach us, even so far as to exile us from our home and spread us to the winds, and still it is the one thing we refuse to grasp.

He is, for the record, a supporter of same-sex marriages. To further paraphrase him, "marriage is a mitzvah. It makes God happy, and it makes us happy. We should encourage it in every loving couple."
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