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#27 Nov 04 2008 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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weedjedi wrote:
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You don't have the slightest idea of what trickle-down economics is.


Really? Then Enlighten me. If I'm ignorant to what I am saying than please aid me in being less ignorant. I really don't like talking out of ignorance. And, seriously no sarcasm there I really would like to know what I don't understand.

I was always under the impression that being a menial worker, nobody below me. I work to make everyone above me richer. And for me working to make them richer they pay me a menial salary equal to that of my status of a menial worker. I was always under the impression that Trickle down econ would be that I work to make a man richer and out of the kindness of his heart he pays me a piece of what I made for him for making for him.


Trickle-down economics is an economic theory and it doesn't have anything to do with government hand-outs, or people being "lazy".

In trickle-down economics, the theory is that if you cut taxes for the rich that they'll invest that money and "create" jobs by starting businesses. These new jobs will result in money that will trickle down to the middle and lower class. This theory was pushed by Reagan in the form of his "supply-side" economics. The idea was to create jobs and then demand would follow from that, growing the economy. The problem is that this hasn't worked as they promised. The rich have gotten much, much richer and the middle class has been gotten poorer.

On the flip side of this, if you cut taxes (or increase wages) for the middle and lower class, you're putting money into the hands of people that actually spend their money, which directly stimulates the economy. Remember that economic stimulus plan a few months ago? That helped temporarily stimulate the economy because it put money directly into the hands of people that spend it.

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#28 Nov 04 2008 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
Ok I agree with Joph etc and am mostly posting totally off subject.

GROOOOOOOO!!!!!

I love it I had forgoten about him and miss his comics thanks to you I am now perusing archives.

Thank you.
#29 Nov 04 2008 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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I suppose I'm a Democrat because they appeal to my worldview. I don't think that the shoot-first-ask-later mentality is a virtue, as a Hispanic woman I side with them on abortion and immigration as well as gay rights and most other social issues. My mentality on healthcare is more Clinton than Obama, but as a whole I can't get behind gun rights or the death penalty, and I'll be damned if I'll be in the same party as the KKK.
#30 Nov 04 2008 at 3:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Atomicflea wrote:
I suppose I'm a Democrat because they appeal to my worldview. I don't think that the shoot-first-ask-later mentality is a virtue, as a Hispanic woman I side with them on abortion and immigration as well as gay rights and most other social issues. My mentality on healthcare is more Clinton than Obama, but as a whole I can't get behind gun rights or the death penalty, and I'll be damned if I'll be in the same party as the KKK.


This. Also: I'm enough of an adult to accept that the world isn't "fair" and I'd rather see a world in which people are healthy and happy than one where people literally die in the street of starvation while others sit on a pile of gold while clinging to some childish and inhumane notion of "mine, mine, mine".

I guess I should mention that I side with the democrats because we don't have a "dirty socialist" party.

Nexa
____________________________
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#31 Nov 04 2008 at 3:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not a Democrat per say, i'm sure I would be if I happened to live stateside.

I honestly believe that both candidates are good people this time around, Bush is the worst of America in my opinion, and in no way qualified for the job.

Had it not been for 9/11 he might have squeezed through without any huge disaters but sadly it did and he's manahed to fUck up most of the western world in 8 years with his idiotic policy's both home and abroad.
#32 Nov 04 2008 at 4:02 AM Rating: Excellent
I was raised by my Father, a life long member of the Plumber & Pipefitters Union, and my Stepmother, a Teacher.

Suffice to say, my family is pro union. Democrats are pro union.

I too was a Union member for about 5 years before working my way up into management. I've seen both the "good" & "bad" that comes along with unions.

And suffice to say, the good outways the bad by a large margin.

Also, having always been middle class, Dem's economic policies directly benifit me.

I also believe in science, that gay rights really are the last thing left for the civil rights movement to accomplish, sex ed, free healthcare (everyone has a right to live), a women's right to choose, diplomacy, and that we Must separate the church and skate!
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#33 Nov 04 2008 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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Weedjedi, as someone from Britain, all I'll say is that our country isn't socialist; it's right wing by European standards and has at best a mix between a "socialist" and a "capitalist" economy. And by our standards Obama is a social and economic conservative.

Barring all the SNAFU of the past few months, our economy was doing great.. better than yours in fact. We have exhorbetantly rich people to admire and lots of poor people to look down: you won't lose good COPS episodes if Obama gets in, I promise. And free healthcare is great, you don't need to be afraid. :) And you shouldn't be actually, because Obama's plan is laughable, comparing it to socialism is like comparing this post to the "Communist Manifesto".

If your family is not in the tiny minority who already make enough that the extra taxes they pay under Obama (I'm assuming you know enough to have looked that up already) will cost them more than the better deal they'll get for healthcare and support for college tuition, with their home, etc then, being selfish, you should support Obama.

Don't worry about the economy @#%^ing up because you're doing so much better. You know @#%^ all about economics (just like Henry Paulson) and you can't know what will happen to the economy under either McCain or Obama. No, seriously, I doubt anyone really does, so don't be an arrogant ****. A tax cut or reduced prescription costs however, those are things you can grasp.

Don't support McCain just because his economic plan can be summarised in three sentances and understood by idiots. There's a reason for that. You want someone smart when it comes to dealing with Putin, you really do.

Edited, Nov 4th 2008 7:05am by Youshutup
#34 Nov 04 2008 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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2,086 posts
Quote:
Weedjedi, as someone from Britain, all I'll say is that our country isn't socialist; it's right wing by European standards and has at best a mix between a "socialist" and a "capitalist" economy. And by our standards Obama is a social and economic conservative.

Barring all the SNAFU of the past few months, our economy was doing great.. better than yours in fact. We have exhorbetantly rich people to admire and lots of poor people to look down: you won't lose good COPS episodes if Obama gets in, I promise. And free healthcare is great, you don't need to be afraid. :) And you shouldn't be actually, because Obama's plan is laughable, comparing it to socialism is like comparing this post to the "Communist Manifesto".

If your family is not in the tiny minority who already make enough that the extra taxes they pay under Obama (I'm assuming you know enough to have looked that up already) will cost them more than the better deal they'll get for healthcare and support for college tuition, with their home, etc then, being selfish, you should support Obama.

Don't worry about the economy @#%^ing up because you're doing so much better. You know @#%^ all about economics (just like Henry Paulson) and you can't know what will happen to the economy under either McCain or Obama. No, seriously, I doubt anyone really does, so don't be an arrogant ****. A tax cut or reduced prescription costs however, those are things you can grasp.

Don't support McCain just because his economic plan can be summarised in three sentances and understood by idiots. There's a reason for that. You want someone smart when it comes to dealing with Putin, you really do.


If I had paid for premium, I would clap!

I would however point out that in the UK they are currently discussing letting some patients pay for care (thereby introducing a 2 tier NHS). But thats another rant ...
#35 Nov 04 2008 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
Flea wrote:
and I'll be damned if I'll be in the same party as the KKK.


I'm prolly gonna get reamed for this but, too late. Contrary to your conception...the Dems created the KKK. In the time of the KKK the south were ALL democrats. They've flipped to Republican now yeah, however they we're a majority of Dems. They became repub when the dems recreated themselves to hate guns, basically. However, the Dems then we're the "masterminds" behind the KKK.

They we're created to keep blacks in segregation. The Dems we're prosegregation at this time. In fact Dems didn't become Pro-civil rights until JFK. They voted down EVERY civil rights bill until that time, however the Repubs got them through. Sorry, to burst your bubble but, the repubs we're for civil rights and change, while the Dems we're for keeping the blacks and women where they were and not changing ANYTHING. The dems created the literacy tests, poll taxes, and quizzes that stopped blacks from voting. the repubs eliminated them.
Smiley: schooled

However, they recreated themselves when they realized that wasn't working anymore into the party they are today.
#36 Nov 04 2008 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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3,211 posts
Youshutup wrote:
Weedjedi, as someone from Britain, all I'll say is that our country isn't socialist; it's right wing by European standards and has at best a mix between a "socialist" and a "capitalist" economy. And by our standards Obama is a social and economic conservative.

Barring all the SNAFU of the past few months, our economy was doing great.. better than yours in fact. We have exhorbetantly rich people to admire and lots of poor people to look down: you won't lose good COPS episodes if Obama gets in, I promise. And free healthcare is great, you don't need to be afraid. :) And you shouldn't be actually, because Obama's plan is laughable, comparing it to socialism is like comparing this post to the "Communist Manifesto".

If your family is not in the tiny minority who already make enough that the extra taxes they pay under Obama (I'm assuming you know enough to have looked that up already) will cost them more than the better deal they'll get for healthcare and support for college tuition, with their home, etc then, being selfish, you should support Obama.

Don't worry about the economy @#%^ing up because you're doing so much better. You know @#%^ all about economics (just like Henry Paulson) and you can't know what will happen to the economy under either McCain or Obama. No, seriously, I doubt anyone really does, so don't be an arrogant ****. A tax cut or reduced prescription costs however, those are things you can grasp.

Don't support McCain just because his economic plan can be summarised in three sentances and understood by idiots. There's a reason for that. You want someone smart when it comes to dealing with Putin, you really do.


You said it better than I could have. /agree

edit:
weedjedi wrote:
Flea wrote:
and I'll be damned if I'll be in the same party as the KKK.


I'm prolly gonna get reamed for this but, too late. Contrary to your conception...the Dems created the KKK. In the time of the KKK the south were ALL democrats. They've flipped to Republican now yeah, however they we're a majority of Dems. They became repub when the dems recreated themselves to hate guns, basically. However, the Dems then we're the "masterminds" behind the KKK.

They we're created to keep blacks in segregation. The Dems we're prosegregation at this time. In fact Dems didn't become Pro-civil rights until JFK. They voted down EVERY civil rights bill until that time, however the Repubs got them through. Sorry, to burst your bubble but, the repubs we're for civil rights and change, while the Dems we're for keeping the blacks and women where they were and not changing ANYTHING. The dems created the literacy tests, poll taxes, and quizzes that stopped blacks from voting. the repubs eliminated them.
Smiley: schooled

However, they recreated themselves when they realized that wasn't working anymore into the party they are today.

They no longer support those views, which is why I can affiliate with the party. I'm not going to hold the past against the party, especially since it's currently the more progressive of the two parties.

I imagine the Republican party is going to have to recreate itself, given the current political tide, if they want to stay competitive in politics.

Edited, Nov 4th 2008 7:20am by Ranzera
#37 Nov 04 2008 at 5:24 AM Rating: Good
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weedjedi wrote:
Oh, and just for clarification I'm not a hardcore right-winger. However I am in agreeance with about everything the repubs stand for atm.


What? Just about everything they stand for right now is far right wing though. Make up your mind.

And for the record, I'm neither as I'm Canadian, but I find myself voting Conservative.
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#38 Nov 04 2008 at 5:27 AM Rating: Default
Ranzera wrote:
I imagine the Republican party is going to have to recreate itself, given the current political tide, if they want to stay competitive in politics.


More than likely they'll have to suffer an even greater loss than this to force them to recreate. Since this election is so close they'll believe that they only have to do a few things different to win. Not to mention that politics goes in phases. The dems will probably have the next 8-12 years, then the repubs will be back in. The only sad thing, well sad to me, is that most likely the dems will have the Super-majority, unable to be delayed by a filibuster, or any slowing in the processes in the house or senate. They could very easily hit the magic number in the senate.

For the repubs to be forced into recreation, it'll prolly have to be like 1937-1939 when they had 19 in the senate to the dems 76. That kind of loss will make them reconsider what they stand for, but I hope that never happens.

EDIT: Hey I finally hit 900, YAY! Smiley: yippee

Edited, Nov 4th 2008 8:38am by weedjedi
#39 Nov 04 2008 at 5:33 AM Rating: Default
Uglysasquatch wrote:
What? Just about everything they stand for right now is far right wing though. Make up your mind.

And for the record, I'm neither as I'm Canadian, but I find myself voting Conservative.


Let me rephrase that, I see Eye to eye with John McCain. The most liberal conservative EVER. Secondly, I would suppose it depends on what you consider a far right-wing conservative to be. I don't consider myself one, I'm much more in the middle than anything else.

See, I agree with about 75% of the things Obama claims, however I can't believe anything he says. He lied to Ohio, he's lied about his relations to people, and a majority of his campaign is to keep Americans mad about Bush. Instead of learning from the past he's trying to keep people living in the past. I really can't listen to an attack campaign that doesn't admit to being an attack campaign. Then they cry about McCain's attack campaign...at least he doesn't deny it.
#40 Nov 04 2008 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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weedjedi wrote:
Ranzera wrote:
I imagine the Republican party is going to have to recreate itself, given the current political tide, if they want to stay competitive in politics.


More than likely they'll have to suffer an even greater loss than this to force them to recreate. Since this election is so close they'll believe that they only have to do a few things different to win. Not to mention that politics goes in phases. The dems will probably have the next 8-12 years, then the repubs will be back in. The only sad thing, well sad to me, is that most likely the dems will have the Super-majority, unable to be delayed by a filibuster, or any slowing in the processes in the house or senate. They could very easily hit the magic number in the senate.

For the repubs to be forced into recreation, it'll prolly have to be like 1937-1939 when they had 19 in the senate to the dems 76. That kind of loss will make them reconsider what they stand for, but I hope that never happens.


While I'm for a few years of a fillibuster-proof democratic senate, I'm also pretty sure it won't happen. I think they'll get close enough to where a few moderate repubs will prevent a few fillibusters. If I had to wager, I'd say the Dems get 59 seats(including the independants). That 60th seat would have to come from Georgia, Mississippi, or Kentucky and frankly I don't see any of those races going Dem.

I think the repubs absolutely should recreate their party. The moderate Republicans should take their party back, and base their campaigns on the issues and not fear. I may not have shared the party's beliefs, but I can remember a time where I had a decent amount of respect for the candidates on their ticket.
#41 Nov 04 2008 at 5:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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The John McCain of 2000 was pretty left for a Republican. That's not the case anymore. His choice in picking Palin, his 180 on freedom of choice, etc. are evidence of that. I wouldn't have cried if he's won in 2000, but doesn't have the same views now.

Nexa
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#42 Nov 04 2008 at 5:38 AM Rating: Good
Nexa wrote:
The John McCain of 2000 was pretty left for a Republican. That's not the case anymore. His choice in picking Palin, his 180 on freedom of choice, etc. are evidence of that. I wouldn't have cried if he's won in 2000, but doesn't have the same views now.


Well that's basically, I don't respect him for this, because he sold his soul and values to win the Nom, and possibly in an attempt to win the election.
#43 Nov 04 2008 at 5:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why? I agree with several people on the thread so far, and Youshutup summarized it all very nicely. Want a sound bite?

Enlightened self interest.

It ultimately benefits me when the middle class is strong, when the economy is good, when the rest of the world doesn't hate us. It benefits me when we take care of people before they land in the emergency room and cost ten times more for lesser care, all on the taxpayer's dime.

It benefits me when people are allowed to do as they will as long as they cause no harm to others. It benefits me when the people in charge regard me as an adult capable of carrying my fair share of the tax burden, and understanding plain English.

It benefits me when other peoples' religious beliefs are not used as the standard by which my own and others' actions are judged.
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#44 Nov 04 2008 at 5:45 AM Rating: Good
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weedjedi wrote:
Flea wrote:
and I'll be damned if I'll be in the same party as the KKK.


I'm prolly gonna get reamed for this but, too late. Contrary to your conception...the Dems created the KKK. In the time of the KKK the south were ALL democrats.


Well, good thing Flea isn't voting in the 1865 election. Smiley: rolleyes
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#45 Nov 04 2008 at 5:49 AM Rating: Default
weedjedi wrote:
Nexa wrote:
The John McCain of 2000 was pretty left for a Republican. That's not the case anymore. His choice in picking Palin, his 180 on freedom of choice, etc. are evidence of that. I wouldn't have cried if he's won in 2000, but doesn't have the same views now.


Well that's basically, I don't respect him for this, because he sold his soul and values to win the Nom, and possibly in an attempt to win the election.


And that's soooooo much better than serving on an educational reform board (or whatever) with Bill Ayers. And I'd say being involved in the Keating Five scandal is worse than any "association" Obama has.

And it's funny that one of your reasons for defending trickle down economics is that "well this country was created with them"

Well this country was also built on slavery, so that's a good idea too I guess?


#46 Nov 04 2008 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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DaimenKain wrote:
weedjedi wrote:
Nexa wrote:
The John McCain of 2000 was pretty left for a Republican. That's not the case anymore. His choice in picking Palin, his 180 on freedom of choice, etc. are evidence of that. I wouldn't have cried if he's won in 2000, but doesn't have the same views now.


Well that's basically, I don't respect him for this, because he sold his soul and values to win the Nom, and possibly in an attempt to win the election.


And that's soooooo much better than serving on an educational reform board (or whatever) with Bill Ayers. And I'd say being involved in the Keating Five scandal is worse than any "association" Obama has.

And it's funny that one of your reasons for defending trickle down economics is that "well this country was created with them"

Well this country was also built on slavery, so that's a good idea too I guess?




Hey now, we're actually having a pretty civil discussion about politics. Lets leave all the finger pointing to all the flame-ridden threads =p
#47 Nov 04 2008 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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There's been some research done recently that shows that liberal brains are different from conservative brains.

So it may be that none of us had a choice in the matter, just like our sexuality.

#48 Nov 04 2008 at 6:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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trickybeck wrote:

There's been some research done recently that shows that liberal brains are different from conservative brains.

So it may be that none of us had a choice in the matter, just like our sexuality.



Even if it's true, I'd still be curious to know how much is cause and how much is effect. Or did you just mean that ours are bigger, with more robust synaptic connections?
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#49 Nov 04 2008 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
trickybeck wrote:

There's been some research done recently that shows that liberal brains are different from conservative brains.

So it may be that none of us had a choice in the matter, just like our sexuality.


I don't completely buy the "people are gay because they're born that way" argument.

I DON'T think it's completely experience, but I don't think it's completely genetics either; I think it's a bit of both. Kind of like obesity or alcoholism. Some people could have genes that will make them more prone to be overweight or alcoholic, but that doesn't mean they'll necessary manifest those traits.
#50 Nov 04 2008 at 6:10 AM Rating: Decent
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weedjedi wrote:
So I was just wondering why a vast majority of you guys are Dems? Tell me and then you can sub-default me for posting what you think is a completely pointless topic. See fun for everyone. I just ask that you respond to my question before you sub-default me. Please.

Oh, and just for clarification I'm not a hardcore right-winger. However I am in agreeance with about everything the repubs stand for atm.


Why are you a republican? Why do you come here asking people's opinion without first giving yours?

You can't both stand for a women's reproductive rights concerning abortion and then try and defend the 'rights' of a fertilized egg. This you know. You don't agree with abortion - say as much without the bull.

You can't understand the 'dems' tax theory, or any other because you don't want to. You're sure that you are being taken advantage of by the government, by the needy, by the jobless, by the environmentalists. Yet, you most likely don't lack for food, shelter, education, and even some luxuries.

Most likely you have no actual 'knowledge' of tax systems. Your example of the business owner is flawed in many ways yet succeeds in pointing out the error made by the last administration in buying into this idea profits are earnings. They're not.

Business's are not in the business to make 'profits', they're in the business to earn wealth and provide income to the owners and workers. 'Super-profit' can and should be taxed heavily - it's the excess.

The twisting of Obamas words is in the ear of the listener....and to compare and contrast; I find Palin's words not twisted but more like 'bent' as in respect to the truth. But this is strictly opinion and has no place in this discussion that you called for.

If you're really interested as to know why I align myself more with democrats vs. republicans, to summarize it most concisely I guess it's because I think a governments first responsibility is to strive to provide for a society that is secure, just, equal and efficient. The republican agenda for the last thirty years or so has tipped the scale too far, ignoring equality and making mince meat of personal freedoms. I'm hoping the dems can, ever so gently, rebalance things.

Btw, you gettin' rated down by me, just cuz despite your claims you sound like every other ignorant, arrogant trolling ******* that passes through here.


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#51 Nov 04 2008 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
I vote Democrat because there isn't an alternative, realistic socialist option.
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