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#127 Oct 23 2008 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Samira wrote:
Quote:
We elect democrats because Republicans can't control spending, and the national debt grows. Brilliant


Last time a Democrat was President the national debt shrank.



Sigh...

While you both use the term "national debt", we all know (or should by now) that the relevant calculation is "debt held by public as a percentage of GDP". That's the only correct way to measure real debt against a national economy.


Horseshit. This does not change the fact that we are $10,500,000,000,000 in debt. George Bush has borrowed more money than every other president combined.
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#128 Oct 23 2008 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Samira wrote:
Quote:
We elect democrats because Republicans can't control spending, and the national debt grows. Brilliant


Last time a Democrat was President the national debt shrank.



Sigh...

While you both use the term "national debt", we all know (or should by now) that the relevant calculation is "debt held by public as a percentage of GDP". That's the only correct way to measure real debt against a national economy.


Horseshit. This does not change the fact that we are $10,500,000,000,000 in debt. George Bush has borrowed more money than every other president combined.


But who is better off, the guy that is 40,000 in debt and makes 50,000 a year or the guy that is 50,000 in debt and makes 80,000 per year?
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#129 Oct 23 2008 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
The best off are the ones that were in debt and didn't invest in the stock market and instead paid it off. Smiley: schooled

I'd like to make $80,000 a year. But I'd settle for $50,000 a year, which is about twice what I make now. Nobody in the world likes English majors. (Hence, time for me to go back to school and make that a graduate degree.)
#130 Oct 24 2008 at 2:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
The best off are the ones that were in debt and didn't invest in the stock market and instead paid it off. Smiley: schooled

I'd like to make $80,000 a year. But I'd settle for $50,000 a year, which is about twice what I make now. Nobody in the world likes English majors. (Hence, time for me to go back to school and make that a graduate degree.)


Eh, don't bother...I've been job hunting for over 6 months now, haha.

Nexa
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#131 Oct 24 2008 at 10:35 AM Rating: Default
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Samira wrote:
Quote:
We elect democrats because Republicans can't control spending, and the national debt grows. Brilliant


Last time a Democrat was President the national debt shrank.



non sequitur.

Look at this table.

Around page 20 or so you can start finding different budget tabulations and expenses and receipts from the US government for most of the 20th century.

Anywho - budget does pretty good until the 1930s - hello there FDR, also that's when the government starts raking in heavy income tax. Also notice, around page 50 or so in the middle of the page you can find defense spending as a percentage of the total expenses. Its gone down pretty consistently since the 1950s. Which means if its going down something must be taking its place. (hello there FDR entitlement programs). Especially considering the governments take in personal income taxes keeps increasing. It surely must be those warmongering republicans wrecking the budget though right?

The numbers are all there, fact of the matter is FDR and LBJ are the 2 presidents most responsible for our budgeting crisis through there continually expanding of the New Deal and Great Society programs. Trivia factoid: they had liberal supermajorities, which is likely Obama can usher in era #3 that we'll never be able to pay for. He's already proposed what $800B in new spending?

If the democrats fix the budget (and honestly I hope they do) I'll eat my shoe. Its just not gonna happen. There's 0 historical precedent for it.


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#132 Oct 24 2008 at 10:56 AM Rating: Default
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The Great Driftwood wrote:

We're about to let a communist buy the whitehouse, oh the irony. A guy who gets 'housing advice' from the execs at Fannie Mae. Brilliant.

Communist? I assume you're talking about Obama. Maybe you should research exactly what communism is.

Anyway...

We already have a crazy right-winger here, go home.


Maybe you should learn who Obama is.

Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
[quote]Let's deduct the 21k she's charged in 2 years for commercial trips from the amount it would have cost to maintain and use said jet and see if we come out ahead...
I don't understand this. Are you seriously saying that if someone saves the state X dollars, it's okay to cheat them for Y dollars so long as X > Y?

Wow.


If you're going to use this kind of equivocation, why should the government be spending money on much at all?

That being said I see no discernable difference between communists, socialist, democrats and even a fair # of republicans.
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#133 Oct 24 2008 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
There isn't?

Like, the projected surplus when Clinton left office somehow doesn't count?
#134 Oct 24 2008 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
There isn't?

Like, the projected surplus when Clinton left office somehow doesn't count?


No, it doesn't count cause he was getting his willy diddled.
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#135 Oct 24 2008 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
But who is better off, the guy that is 40,000 in debt and makes 50,000 a year or the guy that is 50,000 in debt and makes 80,000 per year?


The guy who's reducing, not increasing his debt.
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#136 Oct 24 2008 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
If you're going to use this kind of equivocation, why should the government be spending money on much at all?

That being said I see no discernable difference between communists, socialist, democrats and even a fair # of republicans.
Spending money isn't illegal or unethical. Playing shennanigans with the expense reports to get the taxpayer to cover your kid's trip to a New York hotel/spa is a different story.

Nice try, though.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#137BrimstoneFox, Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 5:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Protip: you're correct, but missing the point entirely.
#138 Oct 24 2008 at 5:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
Democracy must be something more than 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner right?
Sure. Right. Quite brilliant.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#139 Oct 24 2008 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
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PunkFloyd, King of Bards wrote:
Horseshit. This does not change the fact that we are $10,500,000,000,000 in debt.


A fact that is irrelevant. It's one of those simplistic measurements that is misused in order to make people who don't understand debt calculations think debt is a bigger problem than it actually is.

And it worked on you apparently.

Do you know what the difference between "debt held by public" and "intergovernmental debt" is?

Do you understand *why* one is relevant to economic health and growth, while the other is not?

Finally, do you understand why the correct measure of debt on our economy is the ratio of debt held by pubic to GDP?


Learn those things and you'll come to the startling realization that we are in actual fact less in debt today than we were in the 1990s when the economy was "booming". While that may fly in the face of everything you've heard (gee! Wonder why that is?), it's absolutely true.
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#140 Oct 24 2008 at 6:14 PM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
But who is better off, the guy that is 40,000 in debt and makes 50,000 a year or the guy that is 50,000 in debt and makes 80,000 per year?


The guy who's reducing, not increasing his debt.


Ok. But how do you measure if your debt is "reducing" or increasing? Wouldn't you compare the relative debt from one year to the other?

So. If in year1, I make 50k and owe 30k, and in year5, I make 80k and owe 40k, am I more in debt in year5 than in year1?

By simple mathematical comparison, sure. 40k is greater than 30k, right? But in year1, I owed 60% of my income, and in year5, I only owe 50% of my income, right?


It's even more silly to just look at the number when you start taking inflationary processes into account. I can't say how much a dollar worth relatively speaking between those two years. Under your measurement, that's critical. Under mine, it just doesn't matter. What matters is how much the debt burdens the income. That's a straight ratio.


We are less in debt today than we were for the entire 1990s. That's a fact.
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#141 Oct 24 2008 at 8:35 PM Rating: Default
The original issue of the plane, I don't know if I care cause I doubt either political group is going to hold off of spending tax payer money in the future.

The clothes part, if you donate to a campaign you shouldn't give a rip where the money goes, you have no ability to make that decision and as well, if you think of the average American voter, you do every step to be marketable. Including dressing well.

Personally, I am not fond of either candidate or running mate. I wont be voting based on the people so that isn't an issue. I vote on economics, and any media that doesn't cover that, I think is missing the point.
#142 Oct 24 2008 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
But who is better off, the guy that is 40,000 in debt and makes 50,000 a year or the guy that is 50,000 in debt and makes 80,000 per year?


The guy who's reducing, not increasing his debt.


Ok. But how do you measure if your debt is "reducing" or increasing? Wouldn't you compare the relative debt from one year to the other?

So. If in year1, I make 50k and owe 30k, and in year5, I make 80k and owe 40k, am I more in debt in year5 than in year1?

By simple mathematical comparison, sure. 40k is greater than 30k, right? But in year1, I owed 60% of my income, and in year5, I only owe 50% of my income, right?


It's even more silly to just look at the number when you start taking inflationary processes into account. I can't say how much a dollar worth relatively speaking between those two years. Under your measurement, that's critical. Under mine, it just doesn't matter. What matters is how much the debt burdens the income. That's a straight ratio.
Actually, what matters is whether or not you're even attempting to make payments on it, and if those payments are keeping up on any interest on it.

If that's not the case, then yes, your debt is increasing, regardless of whether or not it's a smaller percentage of your income. It's ridiculous to say that if I go from making $15k a year and having $500 in debt to, say, $150k a year and $4k in debt, in the span of a year, that my debt hasn't increased. Whatever payments I could have been making on it obviously aren't keeping up with (1) interest and (2) additions to the debt. (If inflation is such that the debt's value has gone up by a factor of 8 in this short of a time span, we have much bigger problems anyway, including that, in practice, debt doesn't normally get revalued to remain constant in terms of the currency it was originally incurred in.)

So yes, the national debt is increasing, regardless of it being a smaller share of GDP.
#143 Oct 25 2008 at 2:15 AM Rating: Good
@#%^ing DRK
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13,143 posts
BrimstoneFox wrote:
Maybe you should learn who Obama is.


Maybe you should do more research before you post youtube links of poorly constructed arguments. All facts point to your rabid right account--based on a chainmail started by a conspiracy theorist in Africa--being completely false.

Edit: Also, someone leeching off of your fame by claiming to be your relative to supposedly authenticate their political value =/= a real relative.



Edited, Oct 25th 2008 6:18am by Paskil
#144 Oct 25 2008 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

We are less in debt today than we were for the entire 1990s. That's a fact.


That is patently false. You may be able to claim that the national debt/GDP ratio is lower, but the national debt has more than doubled since the early 90s. GDP is independent of the national debt.
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#145BrimstoneFox, Posted: Oct 25 2008 at 8:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've already read the snopes article and it has nothing to do with the video I posted. it debunks an absurd email that is obvious full of ****. I could have told you that without going to snopes.
#146 Oct 25 2008 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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BrimstoneFox wrote:

What I do care about is why was Obama supporting this guy? WHY?

That tells us something about Obama.


Because he's a freedom-hating socialist who wants to do nothing more than take money from the rich and give it to the poor. Like a modern day Robin Hood, but evil!

There, that's what you want to hear, will you go away now?



Edited, Oct 26th 2008 12:50am by CBD
#147 Oct 25 2008 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
What I do care about is why was Obama supporting this guy? WHY?
Your video is a joke. It repeatedly shows Obama with Odinga at an AIDS prevention/testing PSA-style event where both were publically tested for the virus.

Now, if Obama was "campaigning" for Odinga, and remember that Obama had a traveling press corp with him for the entire trip, why are they forced to keep showing footage of a call for AIDS testing as their evidence of "campaigning"? This was well before Obama's declared run for the presidency and before the election where Odinga lost and the violence took place. The press widely reported on his trip and would have had no reason to hide Obama's "campaigning".

Odinga belongs to the same tribe as Obama's relatives. Odinga claimed that he is from the same family, Obama says that, as far as he knows, there's no blood relation. I'll admit to not knowing how African tribes decide who is related to whom.

The man accusing Obama of being Odinga's "stooge" was a member of the Kenyan government under Kibaki which was pissy that Obama accused the government of corruption after members of the press corp were shaken down for bribes by government officials.

Obama's trip to Kenya was part of a larger trip to Africa including trips to South Africa, Chad and Djibouti (a trip to Congo was eventually cancelled). It was "tax-payer funded" because it was an official Senate trip and Obama is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee panel on African Affairs.

Nothing else in the video linked the two men at all. Again, I find it especially telling that people accuse Obama of "campaigning" for Odinga yet no one can show an actual instance of it, has footage of it or even transcripts of speeches Obama gave supporting Odinga. Instead, we just have silent footage of Obama and Odinga standing outside a trailer with an AIDS ribbon on it and the name of a British medical organization.
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#148 Oct 25 2008 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What I do care about is why was Obama supporting this guy? WHY?

That tells us something about Obama.


So your rational is that politician and a possible future President should not talk to other foreign leaders to try to resolve a crisis? Odinga is the the co-leader of Kenya. Any relationship is purely political/diplomatic. The fact is that the only time they have talked to one another--outside of Obama's visit to the region in 2006--was to voice concern over the events taking place caused by Odinga's supporters; he also spoke with the current President of Kenya (covering the bases). There is no relationship.

So Obama went to Kenya OVER A YEAR before the election that caused the bloody mess that resulted in the current power sharing government. What does that have to do with Obama? Because he visited a country a year before certain events happened, he guilty by association? Also, for any information on how Obama supports Odinga, you will need to provide me a REAL cite--not some fucking retarded right wing blog. I surely cannot find anything.

Learn to research things. It will help you come across as halfway intelligent instead of a troglodyte smashing itself into a keyboard.

EDIT: Damn you Joph. Smiley: frown

Edited, Oct 26th 2008 1:27am by Paskil
#149 Oct 25 2008 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
BrimstoneFox wrote:
What I do care about is why was Obama supporting this guy? WHY?
Your video is a joke. It repeatedly shows Obama with Odinga at an AIDS prevention/testing PSA-style event where both were publically tested for the virus.

Obama's trip to Kenya was part of a larger trip to Africa including trips to South Africa, Chad and Djibouti (a trip to Congo was eventually cancelled). It was "tax-payer funded" because it was an official Senate trip and Obama is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee panel on African Affairs.


Interesting. Well I guess I'm wrong.


Quote:
Obama's perceived support for Odinga may have arisen from a speech he gave to university students in Nairobi during his 2006 visit. Obama spoke out against corruption in President Kibaki's government. Because Odinga is Kibaki's main political rival, Obama's criticism was misconstrued to mean that he had endorsed Odinga.
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#150 Oct 25 2008 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
First rule of Gbajing is to never admit you're wrong.

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