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#202 Oct 09 2008 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
knoxsouthy wrote:
Ash,

Quote:
Yeah, the poor, put-upon wealthy class. I feel so badly for them


Like i've said Democrats care nothing for freedom and independence, this little quote of yours emphasizes this point.
Pubbies don't care much for it either. It's just different freedoms that they're against. Since neither of the major parties has any real interest in promoting real liberty in society, I tend to side with the democrats because in my heart my individual freedoms far outweigh my economic freedoms.

I'm willing to sacrifice and pay higher taxes to take care of the poor in return for a government that keeps its considerable (and constantly expanding, regardless of the party-in-control) bulk out of my personal life.
#203 Oct 09 2008 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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knoxsouthy wrote:
Ash,

Quote:
Yeah, the poor, put-upon wealthy class. I feel so badly for them


Like i've said Democrats care nothing for freedom and independence, this little quote of yours emphasizes this point.

Your freedom and independence should not come at the cost of another's. Regulations are there to keep this from happening - taking advantage of someone else's situation just because you have more money than they do (regarless of its source).
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#204 Oct 09 2008 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Varrus wrote:
How's the southside of chicago doing today?
Better than it was in the late 80's and early 90's, truth be told.

Can't say it's because Obama single-handedly fixed it or anything but that's an asinine path to go down anyway. Arizona has a water problem! How come McCain hasn't changed Arizona into a verdant pasture yet?!?!?!

Edited, Oct 9th 2008 12:31pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#205 Oct 09 2008 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
Varrus wrote:
How's the southside of chicago doing today?
Better than it was in the late 80's and early 90's, truth be told.


I just realized a few days ago that I have no idea what burb I should move to. Or can afford.

Chicago is just to damn big and I only have until May to figure it out.
#206 Oct 09 2008 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why are you moving to the Windy City?

I mean, there's not much reason to move to Darien if you're getting a job in Greyslake.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#208 Oct 09 2008 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
Why are you moving to the Windy City?


The Law. The misses is graduating in early May and she wants to take the Illinois Bar, so to Chi-town we go.

Ideally, a central burb would be great but I realize that's not going to happen. Her brother lives in New Lenox and while it's nice, just not my speed.
#209 Oct 09 2008 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
Varrus wrote:
How's the southside of chicago doing today?
Better than it was in the late 80's and early 90's, truth be told.

Can't say it's because Obama single-handedly fixed it or anything but that's an asinine path to go down anyway. Arizona has a water problem! How come McCain hasn't changed Arizona into a verdant pasture yet?!?!?!

Edited, Oct 9th 2008 12:31pm by Jophiel
I bet Mitt Romney can control the weather. Smiley: bah
#210 Oct 09 2008 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
Mindel wrote:
I bet Mitt Romney can control the weather. Smiley: bah


Thanks be to the power of Moroni, all Mormons can, don'tcha know?
#211 Oct 09 2008 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
knoxsouthy wrote:
Freedom is freedom. You can't simply say I think freedom over here is good but over there not so much.
If you support a Republican ticket, that's exactly what you're doing. The Republican platform calls for strengthening enforcement efforts against drugs, a violation of a person's right to self-ownership and freedom to ingest what they choose to. The Republican platform calls for prohibiting online gambling, a violation to a person's right to association financial privacy. The Republican platform calls for a Federal ban on gay marriage, a violation of the state's rights to govern their own marriage laws. This list goes on and on and on.

Don't think that just because the Republicans claim to be for lower taxes and are demonstrably in favor of corporate deregulation, that they are the party of freedom. They're just as anti-freedom as the Democrats. The difference is in what freedoms they want to restrict.

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That's the point you're not sacrificing you're forcing others to sacrifice at the point of a gun.
Blah, blah, blah. I've read free-market.net and Lew Rockwell too. Parroting libertarian statements means nothing in this argument. If we are to subscribe to the notion that all government action is predicated upon the threat and eventual application of violence, than you can absolutely not support a Republican candidate as the Republicans are perfectly willing to use that force to every extent that the Democrats are. If you abhor Obama because he may force you to spend your tax dollars on welfare, you must also abhor McCain because he would force you to spend your tax dollars on child tax credits. Because all political action is violence? Can I get a what-what from the Ralph Raico crowd?


P.S.: Don't co-opt my libertarian rage, *****.
#212 Oct 09 2008 at 10:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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knoxsouthy wrote:
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Better than it was in the late 80's and early 90's, truth be told.
Way to avoid the question. Remind me again when Obama was a community organizer in chicago?
Erm.. early-mid 90's?

So I avoided the question by noting that the south side of Chicago (...is the baddest part of town...) is doing better post-Obama than pre-Obama?

Damn. I'm like a mother-fuckin' ninja.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#213 Oct 09 2008 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Pundit-Mindel is among my favorite Mindels. Smiley: inlove
#214 Oct 09 2008 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kaelesh wrote:
Ideally, a central burb would be great but I realize that's not going to happen. Her brother lives in New Lenox and while it's nice, just not my speed.
You lied when you said that New Lenox is nice.

I've no idea how much scratch the Mrs. is going to pull down but I can't imagine that you couldn't find a place in a central-west burb like Downers Grove or Lombard with easy city access.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#215 Oct 09 2008 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
You lied when you said that New Lenox is nice.


Hey man, it's got a train station next to a gas station next to a mexican resturant that I can buy Pepsi bottles in. That's nice enough for me.

But everything tends to flood everytime it rains for more than 10 minutes.

Also, we were thinking Naperville.

Edited, Oct 9th 2008 1:12pm by Kaelesh
#216 Oct 09 2008 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Naperville is nice. I used to live there. My first apartment was right in the heart of the downtown area. Good schools in case you were thinking of sticking around and reproducing. I don't know how it prices these days although it depends on where in Naperville you're thinking.

Edit: "Prices" meaing for apartments. Houses are plenty expensive.

Edited, Oct 9th 2008 1:16pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#217 Oct 09 2008 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Pundit-Mindel is among my favorite Mindels. Smiley: inlove
It's not a side of me you see too often. I don't make a secret of the fact that I'm a pretty radical and rabid libertarian. I do actually believe that government coercion (all government coercion) is inherently evil. It pisses me off when Republicans try to pay a little bit of lip-service to ideals that I hold very dearly while, as a party, they **** on them constantly.

Given that, I am also a pragmatist. We don't live in a society that can currently function with absolute freedom. Our community units are too large and too anonymous for traditional social inhibitions to have enough sway over action. Such a change in our attitudes and reflexes will not happen in my lifetime, if it ever happens. So I am left to judge each political contest as one between two competing evils. I find being coerced in to helping the poor and the sick far less evil than being coerced in to bombing people (even people with brown skin and funny name) and religious intolerance.

And I would rather live in a society that takes care of its weakest members, even if I find the methods distasteful. I would rather live in a society where if I were to lose my mind and get in to another long-term relationship with someone, I'd be able to visit her when she was ill (and make decisions for her when she was unable) and to know she had more right to my inheritance than my 4th cousin. Them's the breaks, right?
#218 Oct 09 2008 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Mindel wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Pundit-Mindel is among my favorite Mindels. Smiley: inlove
It's not a side of me you see too often. I don't make a secret of the fact that I'm a pretty radical and rabid libertarian. I do actually believe that government coercion (all government coercion) is inherently evil. It pisses me off when Republicans try to pay a little bit of lip-service to ideals that I hold very dearly while, as a party, they sh*t on them constantly.

Given that, I am also a pragmatist. We don't live in a society that can currently function with absolute freedom. Our community units are too large and too anonymous for traditional social inhibitions to have enough sway over action. Such a change in our attitudes and reflexes will not happen in my lifetime, if it ever happens. So I am left to judge each political contest as one between two competing evils. I find being coerced in to helping the poor and the sick far less evil than being coerced in to bombing people (even people with brown skin and funny name) and religious intolerance.

And I would rather live in a society that takes care of its weakest members, even if I find the methods distasteful. I would rather live in a society where if I were to lose my mind and get in to another long-term relationship with someone, I'd be able to visit her when she was ill (and make decisions for her when she was unable) and to know she had more right to my inheritance than my 4th cousin. Them's the breaks, right?
I think I agree with you, except I call myself a "Democrat" out of convenience.
#220 Oct 09 2008 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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The Republican platform calls for strengthening enforcement efforts against drugs,
I tend to agree with the libertarians on this one.
Good for you.

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a violation of a person's right to self-ownership
If you're referring to abortion I do agree with republicans; I can't support the Democrat stance that murdering children that have survived abortions is a good thing (something obama supports). If we can't agree life has value what can we agree on?
Abortion rights are just one element. And ********* Obama does not support "murdering children that have survived abortions." He supports the freedom to terminate in the first and second trimester, when the fetus is a lump of flesh incapable of surviving outside the womb, and late-term abortions in cases of rape, incest, or where the health of the mother is endangered. I believe that life has value, including the life of the mother. A fetus, which is little more than a cute tumor, well? Not so much.

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freedom to ingest what they choose to.
I agree with the libertarian stance on this as well.
Good for you.

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They're just as anti-freedom as the Democrats. The difference is in what freedoms they want to restrict.
Not true. By decreasing taxes and putting more money back in the pocket of the people that earn the gop has proved they support giving people control over how they spend their money.[/quote]The GOP has consistently raised taxes starting with the protectionist policies of the 1860s through the massive deficit spending of the current administration (federal debt being nothing more than a deferred tax to be paid in years to come). The GOP has never shown any interest in a real and measurable reduction in taxes beyond the fact that saying "I'll cut your taxes!" draws in votes.

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The Republican platform calls for a Federal ban on gay marriage, a violation of the state's rights to govern their own marriage laws.
Probably because christians don't think the govn should recognize what they believe to be immoral behaviour, which I tend to agree with.[/quote]And lovers of freedom don't believe that religious convictions are a valid source of government policy. I don't really care that Christians believe that I'm "immoral" because I'm gay. I'm still a citizen and deserving of equal rights.

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If you abhor Obama because he may force you to spend your tax dollars on welfare
I abhor Obama because he's a marxist with ties to terrorists.
Do you even know what a Marxist is? And he has as much of a tie to terrorists as I have to my secretary's mother.
#222 Oct 09 2008 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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knoxsouthy wrote:
Obama is good palls with Ayers. Ayers is a self proclaimed terrorist.
Obama and Biden have both called McCain out on talking trash when he's alone on stage, claiming to "take the gloves off" and then pussying out in the debate and being unable to say the same stuff to Obama's face.
Obama wrote:
"I am surprised that, you know, we've been seeing some pretty over-the-top attacks coming out of the McCain campaign over the last several days, that he wasn't willing to say it to my face. But I guess we've got one last debate. So presumably, if he ends up feeling that he needs to, he will raise it during the debate."
Biden wrote:
“All of the things they said about Barack Obama in the TV, on the TV, at their rallies, and now on Youtube and everything else,” Biden said — referring to McCain and Palin tying Obama to Weatherman bomber Bill Ayers and accusing him of “palling around with terrorists.”

“John McCain could not bring himself to look Barack Obama in the eye and say the same things to him,” he said to cheers. “In my neighborhood, you got something to say to a guy, you look him in the eye and you say it to him.“
It's a good point -- McCain's a giant pussy. Smiley: laugh

Edited, Oct 9th 2008 2:12pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#224 Oct 09 2008 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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knoxsouthy wrote:
Also have you noticed in spite of all the accusations Obama has never denied his continued association with ayers?
Maybe McCain should have asked him about it Smiley: laugh


Not to mention the obvious but the Obama campaign has said several times that they haven't communicated in several years

Edited, Oct 9th 2008 2:18pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#225 Oct 09 2008 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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A fetus, which is little more than a cute tumor, well? Not so much.
This is the kind of attitude that's created a society filled with single mothers, and deadbeat fathers, milking the system to support their child. Life begins at conception. Until the Democrats see this they will continue to devalue the life of the individual.
Life, as defined by biologists, must meet the following requirements: internal homeostasis, cellular organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, responsiveness to stimuli, and the ability to reproduce. Unfortunately, prior to the 6th month, a fetus only meets 5 of 7 criteria, and thus is not an independent organism in scientific terms.

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The GOP has never shown any interest in a real and measurable reduction in taxes beyond the fact that saying "I'll cut your taxes!" draws in votes.
You may be right. Unfortunately the Democrats are saying they're going to increase taxes, insert slick willy tax increase speech. I know here comes the, only the top 5%, nonsensical rebutal. And i've gone over this time and again. Corporations don't pay taxes, people do. Taxing the wealthiest only serves to restrict their ability to grow and employ more people with greater benefits.
Tax cuts without dollar-for-dollar spending cuts are not tax cuts at all. Every dime of debt accrued by the US government will eventually be paid back out of future revenue.

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And lovers of freedom don't believe that religious convictions are a valid source of government policy. I don't really care that Christians believe that I'm "immoral" because I'm gay. I'm still a citizen and deserving of equal rights.
Yes they do. Every society has norms based on moral conviction. I'm not saying it should be illegal to be homosexual. What I am saying is forcing the govn to recognize homosexuality as a valid lifestyle is wrong.
But homosexuality is not considered immoral universally. There are even many Christian and Jewish denominations that support homosexuality, on top of which there is the population of areligious, agnostic, and secular people, and adherents to other religions which take no stand on homosexuality at all. What you're proposing is that the moral judgment of one subset of a subset of society should be the nucleus of federal policy. The Republicans pose doing this by a ban at the Federal level that would force states to not allow homosexual marriage. Force, as you put it, at the barrel of a gun. This is not exactly a freedom loving stance.

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Obama is good palls with Ayers. Ayers is a self proclaimed terrorist. Do the math.
I have. All the evidence points to them being casual, friendly acquaintances. Provide me with evidence to the contrary and I'll consider it, but somehow I doubt your investigation skills are up to par with those of fact-check.org, The Washington Post, or Fox News.
#226 Oct 09 2008 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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knoxsouthy wrote:
This is the kind of attitude that's created a society filled with single mothers, and deadbeat fathers, milking the system to support their child. Life begins at conception. Until the Democrats see this they will continue to devalue the life of the individual.

Because you say so. Got it.

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And lovers of freedom don't believe that religious convictions are a valid source of government policy. I don't really care that Christians believe that I'm "immoral" because I'm gay. I'm still a citizen and deserving of equal rights.

Yes they do. Every society has norms based on moral conviction. I'm not saying it should be illegal to be homosexual. What I am saying is forcing the govn to recognize homosexuality as a valid lifestyle is wrong.

Why is being homosexual "wrong"? Because your puritanical christian dogma decrees so?

You specifically want the entire country to bend to your own will. Guess what, several hundred thousand people don't view things exactly the same way you do.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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