Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

VP debate odds.......Follow

#27 Sep 30 2008 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
"Agreeing is bad debating!!" or not, Obama's only gone up in the polls since the first debate, especially now that the rolling dailies include entirely post-debate numbers. His battleground state numbers are even better.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#28 Sep 30 2008 at 1:37 PM Rating: Excellent
****
4,158 posts
And in the interests of fairness....


I would like Joe Biden to be asked the following......


Mr Biden. Could you explain your position in the lead up to the Iraq war, when you became arguably the most important, for the Bush Administration, congressional backer of the coming war in Iraq. During that time (mid to late 2002) you had the chairmanship of hearings set up to look at any potential threat that Iraq may pose to the US,. Can you explain why many key witnesses were excluded from those hearings, leading Scott Ritter, an acknowledged expert on the state of Iraqs current WMD capability to state, "It is clear that Sen. Biden and his colleagues have no interest in such facts".

Could you also explain why did you join Sen. John McCain and others in voting against the amendment by Sen. Carl Levin that would have forced the president to obtain U.N. Security Council approval before launching the war?

And finally could you explain why, after it become obvious that Iraq had no such weaponry, and that the whole war had been based upon half truths and outright fabrications, did you explain to Tim Russert that "everyone in the world thought Saddam had WMD's". Wich was patently untrue, and "The weapons inspectors said he had them", wich is an outright lie.
____________________________
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#29 Sep 30 2008 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
BrownDuck the Wise wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And that's the context that really matters. Obama was treating that debate like the objective was to convince people that his ideas were better. McCain was trying to convince voters that he is better...


By your assessment, I'd be "losing" the debate if I agreed with someone that the sky is blue, because at all costs, one should avoid agreeing with their opponent in a debate, regardless if the agreement is based upon obvious truth.



Missing the point I think. You don't disagree with things that are correct. You just don't make a point of naming your opponent and saying "<blank> is absolutely correct". You'd say something like: "Yes, of course the sky is blue, however <insert relevant point here>".


Kinda like:

Obama wrote:

Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.


Looks pretty much to be the same thing to me. Again, I see a lot of ignoring the context going on for the sole purpose of aggrandizing a particular statement.
#30 Sep 30 2008 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
BrownDuck the Wise wrote:
gbaji wrote:

Missing the point I think. You don't disagree with things that are correct. You just don't make a point of naming your opponent and saying "<blank> is absolutely correct". You'd say something like: "Yes, of course the sky is blue, however <insert relevant point here>".


Kinda like:

Obama wrote:

Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.


Looks pretty much to be the same thing to me. Again, I see a lot of ignoring the context going on for the sole purpose of aggrandizing a particular statement.


Nope. Those are completely different. I've already explained at length why.

Heck. If he'd just left out the name, his statement would have been fine. Read this sentence:

Well, I absolutely believe that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis.


Compare that to the sentence above, where the substance of the statement is essentially identical, except that he's stated right off the bat that his opponent is "absolutely correct". The point is that the second version gets the exact same message across, but doesn't basically hand the other guy points. He's not "absolutely correct" if you think you can add something to the discussion, now is he? So why say it?

Obama may think he's winning points on graciousness, but I don't think that's as valuable in this format as he may think it is.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#31 Sep 30 2008 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
lmao man gbaji, you're really grasping at straws.

It's fun to watch.
#32 Sep 30 2008 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
BrownDuck the Wise wrote:
gbaji wrote:

Missing the point I think. You don't disagree with things that are correct. You just don't make a point of naming your opponent and saying "<blank> is absolutely correct". You'd say something like: "Yes, of course the sky is blue, however <insert relevant point here>".


Kinda like:

Obama wrote:

Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.


Looks pretty much to be the same thing to me. Again, I see a lot of ignoring the context going on for the sole purpose of aggrandizing a particular statement.


Nope. Those are completely different. I've already explained at length why.


No, you dense fool, they're exactly the same thing. This is why you have the reputation you do...
#33gbaji, Posted: Sep 30 2008 at 6:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hookay...
#34gbaji, Posted: Sep 30 2008 at 6:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Here. Let me help you by bolding the actual relevant parts instead of the irrelevant ones like you did:
#35 Oct 01 2008 at 6:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Man, that Couric interview was just a goldmine of despair.
CBS last night wrote:
COURIC: And when it comes to establishing your world view, I was curious, what newspapers and magazines did you regularly read before you were tapped for this — to stay informed and to understand the world?

PALIN: I’ve read most of them again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media —

COURIC: But what ones specifically? I’m curious.

PALIN: Um, all of them, any of them that have been in front of me over all these years.

COURIC: Can you name any of them?

PALIN: I have a vast variety of sources where we get our news.
Palin reads the Winford Penny Gazette? Who knew?

And, according to Politico...
Politico wrote:
Of concern to McCain's campaign, however, is a remaining and still-undisclosed clip from Palin's interview with Couric last week that has the political world buzzing.

The Palin aide, after first noting how "infuriating" it was for CBS to purportedly leak word about the gaffe, revealed that it came in response to a question about Supreme Court decisions.

After noting Roe vs. Wade, Palin was apparently unable to discuss any major court cases.

There was no verbal fumbling with this particular question as there was with some others, the aide said, but rather silence.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#36 Oct 01 2008 at 6:21 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
*****
12,065 posts
I feel a little bad for her. I don't think she's probably the brightest, but I don't think she's stupid either and I'm certain that she *can* name other SC decisions...I think she just sucks under pressure and that in itself isn't a great attribute of leadership.

There's also something to be said about how the McCain camp is handling her and how that effects her ability to be interviewed effectively when they do let her out. I can only imagine that she was given hell about the Pakistan comment to the point where she was more than reluctant to say *anything* that wasn't a talking point she had been drilled with. To be asked something even as mundane as "name another supreme court decision" might have struck her with panic and everything she knew just flew out of her head. I think most of us have had moments like that. I know that I'd absolutely suck on Jeopardy just because I wouldn't be able to think of an answer to something I knew with the knowledge that I was being observed by millions of people.

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#37 Oct 01 2008 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Well, as you said, the ability to cope with pressure and still come up with an answer is pretty much a core ability of any politician.

Plus, unlike the current lowball expectations her handlers have been setting, we were told at first that she CAN think on her feet, and that her capacity to do so was a great asset.

Sooooooo, let's see it.

Here's the thing: if you want to run with the big dogs, you need to have some of their savvy and some of their basic knowledge. I'm not talking about beltway insider stuff, but come ON, if you want to help run the country you should at least know a little bit about how it works and how we got to this point. A few Supreme Court decisions off the top of your head is not some unreasonable out-of-the-blue "gotcha".

Hell, I'm not running for office and I can name a dozen and tell you their significance. Anybody who is a citizen of the United States should be able to come up with Marbury v. Madison, Miranda v. Arizona and Brown v. The Board of Education at the very least. And if you shorthanded those to Marbury, Miranda and Brown I'm pretty sure those answers would be accepted.


____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#38 Oct 01 2008 at 6:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Nix v. Hedden!

Most important Supreme Court case... EVER!!

Well, not counting Marshall v. Marshall

And, not to mention the obvious but given the season... Bush v. Gore?
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#39 Oct 01 2008 at 7:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Okay, I admit I had to look up Nix, although I did recognize it when I read it. Smiley: laugh

Heaven forbid we actually spend three cents a day per child on vegetables.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#40 Oct 01 2008 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,781 posts
I think a naturalization exam requires some knowledge of landmark SC decisions. Maybe there should be some entry/screening tool or exam for politicians.
____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#41 Oct 01 2008 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
I think it shows a lack of intellectual curiousity on Palin's part, especially in regards to federal and global politics. Does she read the paper? I have no idea. But the fact that she defaulted to non-answers ("All of 'em!") rather than saying "Well, naturally I read the Fairbanks News-Miner and Anchorage Daily News. I also read the Wall Street Journal & Washington Post..." (note the exclusion of the NYT) is a bit off-putting. She's the governor of Alaska and couldn't just rattle off the two major dailies? I doubt she's illiterate; was she just afraid to answer and name papers because they might not be "good enough"?

The SCotUS thing is about the same. As Samira notes, most people at least reasonably conversant in politics or history could rattle off a few major cases. I don't think it's unreasonable to want high ranking elected officials to show some interest in how our nation works and has worked. They don't explicitly mention the question so maybe Couric asked how many cases Palin could name whose titles can be rearranged to spell "Elephant Vacuum Monster" or something. I kind of doubt it though.

She doesn't have a ton of experience. Ok, fine. But she's also coming across as someone who just never gave a shit about the federal government on anything but a superficial level until late August.

As a total aside, this ad from the front page of the News-Miner site summed up why I'd like to feel that Palin shows some interest in exploring our government and history.
Screenshot
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#42 Oct 01 2008 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
Ministry of Silly Cnuts
*****
19,524 posts
Dunno if it's been referred to here, but I found this article interesting.
BBC News wrote:

If anyone knows the challenge that lies ahead for Senator Joe Biden, it is Andrew Halcro, 44, who took part in a handful of debates with Mrs Palin during Alaska's 2006 gubernatorial race.

"The one thing I found during the [2006] debates was no matter how knowledgeable her opponents were on the issues, it didn't matter," Mr Halcro told BBC News.

"She has an amazing ability to turn a 45 second answer into a folksy story... she's never been forced to know the issues."
Smiley: lol
BBC News wrote:

Mrs Palin even said Mr Halcro would make "the awesomest statistician," when asked during a debate what position she would appoint Mr Halcro to if elected governor.

Still, statistics were not enough to put even the smallest dent in Mrs Palin's rising popularity.

"There were many times the third candidate and I would walk off stage and shake our heads," Mr Halcro said. "It wasn't policy it was populism."
Smiley: rolleyes
____________________________
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
#43 Oct 01 2008 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Yeah, I've read something similar about those debates - that she turned it into a beauty contest, basically, giving sweet but nonresponsive "answers".

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#44 Oct 01 2008 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
*****
10,293 posts
Hmmm, I heard some broad on NPR yesterday saying that she did well in those debates; that she could "hold her own".

I can't wait to find out.
____________________________
What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
#45 Oct 01 2008 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Lady Tare wrote:
Hmmm, I heard some broad on NPR yesterday saying that she did well in those debates; that she could "hold her own".

I can't wait to find out.


That was the early word, certainly.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#46 Oct 01 2008 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
*****
10,293 posts
Is it Thursday yet?
____________________________
What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
#47 Oct 01 2008 at 9:09 AM Rating: Default
Jophiel wrote:
I think it shows a lack of intellectual curiousity on Palin's part, especially in regards to federal and global politics.

She doesn't have a ton of experience. Ok, fine. But she's also coming across as someone who just never gave a shit about the federal government on anything but a superficial level until late August.


She is not qualify for the VP job...period! Way over her head. I blame McCain to put her in this position. She needs to go back home and save this country of a worldwide embarrassment...Can you imagine her President of the United States?
#48 Oct 01 2008 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
That is the horror we're all grappling with.

To be fair, I felt the same way about Dan Quayle and fortunately that never happened.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#49 Oct 01 2008 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
I believe the question about the SCOTUS was "What's your opinion about supereme court cases other than Roe v Wade?"

The cop-out answer is that she doesn't have any opinions on them, duh, hence the silence. However, the appropriate "glittering generality" response had she been able to name even one was would have been, "Well, you know, the supreme court has had to make some landmark decisions over the ages. I think that Marbury vs Madison was incredibly important to the foundation of our government, and of course the Miranda case -- all jokes about reading the rights to terrorists aside! -- was very important. I agree with the court's decisions in almost all other cases, except cases like Roe v Wade where the sanctity of life is endangered."

Oops, put too much substance in that for a Palin answer.

Seriously, if she HAD any opinions other than Roe v Wade, she should have said something. The fact that she was silent and had no opinions on any other cases indicates to me that she simply doesn't give a **** what the SCOTUS does as long as it overturns Roe v Wade.
#51 Oct 01 2008 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
On the other hand, I bet Obama (or Biden) could answer any question found on a first year PolySci quiz.

Not on track but undeserving of its own thread is this from The New Republic:
TNR wrote:
By October first, presidential tracking polls begin to predict the winner in November accurately. Since 1960, Gallup’s tracking poll registered the winner in the popular vote (including Al Gore in 2000), eleven of twelve times. The one exception is 1980, when Jimmy Carter still led Ronald Reagan by 44 to 40 percent. The late September-early October polls have not necessarily predicted the final margin. Third party candidates usually ***** up the total, because their support usually drops by the final election, and generally the race narrows somewhat by the end. In 1996, for instance, Bill Clinton led Bob Dole by 14 percentage points on October first. Clinton’s final margin would be 8.5 percentage points. In 2004, George W. Bush led John Kerry by 8 percentage points. His final margin would be only 2.4 points. But in six of these elections--1960, 1964, 1976, 1984, 1988 and 2000--the final margin was different from the October first polling results by less than three percentage points.
Today's Gallup numbers show Obama +4.

No, I don't think it guarantees a win. Still fun reading, though.

Edited, Oct 1st 2008 12:53pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 217 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (217)