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The Presidential DebateFollow

#27 Sep 26 2008 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress DSD wrote:
Looking at how our military is fairing now with Iraq and Afghanistan, I do not think we could juggle going to war with another country and do well on any front.



"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots fights a war on twelve." -- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5

You're absolutely right, and this whole "lets go in with guns blazing" approach is genuinely frightening.

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That being said, the one aspect I wanted more aggressiveness on: Al Qeida and Osama Bin Laden, I got the feeling that Obama was much more aggressive in that regards, while McCain seemed to act a lot more cautious.


Aww, but golly gee, without Osama Bin Laden at large, Bush couldn't have rung the "Terror Alert" bell so effectively for so many years.

#28 Sep 26 2008 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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I stayed in specifically to watch it. I guess you could say I'm the target audience, an undecided voter in a state that will be very close.

I think what frustrates me the most is the fact you have to practically be a professional politician to see past the first tier of what each person is saying.


For example, Obama mentioned the 300 Billion in tax cuts for business. How does the average person like me know if that 300 Billion in savings will cause a) efficiency in our big companies to go up, b) profits and therefore stock prices held by average americans to go up, c) domestic jobs to increase in those companies which will generate tax revenue, d) allow research and development to allow those companies to maintain leadership in a global market, etc.


Likewise, Obama was blasted for the 18 Mil in 'pork barrel' spending. Yeah we spent 300k studying the mating habits of the humpback whale last year. But what if that paid 10 people to do that research when they would have collected 200k in welfare had they not gotten the grant? What if some of that spending actually contributes to efficiency or development for existing companies? Without going through it line by line how can the average person like me see the bottom line impact?


Obama kept harping on how we are spending 10 billion a month in Iraq but then championed the cause of throwing 1 billion into georgia. Why? Because I imagine it is a good investment. How does the average person know if that 1 Billion is a good investment or if its just more waste?


How do I know when McCain says: "You voted against such and such a bill that would have saved us 100 billion dollars" that one of the amendments tacked on to that bill wasnt something like "Oh and in addition to the aforementioned, we will also build a statue of George W. Bush where the old Yankee Stadium once stood at an estimated cost of 300 billion dollars." How is the average person supposed to vote based on voting records when we would have to personally review each of the proposals line by line?


To that end, neither of the candidates clearly explained to me from point A to point Z a plan that would keep my family safe and give my kids the best chance to go to college and get a good job. I will say that I did at least like the fact Obama would look at McCain instead of avoiding any direct debate. But other than that I feel just as clueless as I did 4 hours ago.

As far as 'grading' the debate I reckon it was pretty close in my eyes. McCain falling into telling stories was kind of weak but at the same time, Obama hardly distanced himself.
#29 Sep 26 2008 at 11:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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While some issue could have been explained better for you Barber there is some research that has to be done on your part. The most that can really be expected from a candidate is to inform, for him/her to clearly convey his/her policies and specific plans of action. The education part is largely left up to party affiliates or the voters themselves.

You may consider that I have bias, but I hope to present a fairly accurate viewpoint.
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For example, Obama mentioned the 300 Billion in tax cuts for business. How does the average person like me know if that 300 Billion in savings will cause a) efficiency in our big companies to go up, b) profits and therefore stock prices held by average americans to go up, c) domestic jobs to increase in those companies which will generate tax revenue, d) allow research and development to allow those companies to maintain leadership in a global market, etc.

"Trickle down" is a trick used by the rich to buy poor votes. What do rich people do with money? They invest it, and investing it helps the economy right? Well yes, so the business owners benefit directly and the low to mid income bracket benefits diffusely.

However consider the alternative. What do low and mid income families do with money? Invest it if they have anything left, but mostly they buy food, clothing, healthcare, and basic necessities. They don't hoard the money in a dark pit in the basement. The profits from the items they buy flow to business owners. It could jsut as easily be argued as a "trickle up" effect. The money they spend is reinvested by the buiness owners jsut as in the first situation. Low to mid income families benefit directly and business owners diffusely.

In either case it can be said that all benefit, but what you are affecting is the strength of the correlation of the benefit. Tax breaks for a specific bracket guarantee that everyone in that bracket sees a benefit, while others in other brackets might see some benefit, but it is not guaranteed. If you receive a tax break you know your bracket will have more spendable income, if another group receives a tax break then you have to hope they spend their dollars in a way that eventually reaches you.

If you want to look at it purely from a self interest point then the choice is clear. High income families should vote for regressive taxes and business tax cuts, while low to mid income families should vote for progressive taxes and tax cuts for their brackets.

If you want to broaden your perspective and look for creating the most good then the choice becomes less blatantly obvious, but I feel still quite clear. Who needs an assured gain more? I believe the gains in increased money available to spend on medical need,s food, and clothing for low income individuals outweigh the utility gained from high income families having that extra cash.

This is just one issue, but it might give you some ideas on how to proceed with evaluating the others. You should expect to do some of your own research. You probably will not find a completely accurate and clear source of information, but there is benefit in even examining potentially biased sources. When comparing two biased sources it is often clear that one seems to make more sense than the other. Are the reasons there because of the bias, or is the bias there because of the reasons? It never hurts to take it all in.
#30 Sep 27 2008 at 1:28 AM Rating: Excellent
catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
What they don't understand is that is how you debate.

Point

Counterpoint

Acknowledgment of counterpoint, rebuttal

Acknowledgment of rebuttal, counter-rebuttal

Etc.

Just going "You're wrong! You're wrong! You're wrong!" without saying why you're wrong is how you lose a debate.

Edited, Sep 26th 2008 11:47pm by catwho
Monty Python wrote:
No it isn't.
#31 Sep 27 2008 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
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McCain did ok, I suppose. He rambled on a bit and his constant "I've been to __________ part of the world and let me tell you..." crap got old pretty fast. Loved it when Obama shut him down on the whole missile strikes in Pakistan thing by saying that McCain has talked previously of wiping out North Korea.

Oh-BAM-a.

McCain's goofy little smile when Obama was going after him/his record/his party's record. Work on that dude, you looked like guy at a party who accidentally farts.

I have heard McCain being compared to Bush and presumably to have him as president would mean simply a continuation of the way things are now, but before last night I took that with a pinch of salt. McCain's obvious bias toward the military, his interest in protecting corporate America and seeming inability to connect with Middle America certainly hearken ol' W.

Edited, Sep 27th 2008 4:08am by Tare
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#32 Sep 27 2008 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
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Obama could've turned up with his underpants on his head and his knob in his hand and he would still be more suitable for President.....

Why??

Because of this.

What a window-licking-foaming-at-the-gash-fucking-moran.

If that idiot EVER gets into a position of power, then USA, you get what you deserve. Smiley: oyvey

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#33 Sep 27 2008 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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That's a good point. I can't wait until the Veep debate. I think McCain's popularity will take a hit when Biden wipes the floor with Palin. Hell, he spanked McCain on his post-debate commentary.
#34 Sep 27 2008 at 6:33 AM Rating: Good
Atomicflea wrote:
That's a good point. I can't wait until the Veep debate. I think McCain's popularity will take a hit when Biden wipes the floor with Palin. Hell, he spanked McCain on his post-debate commentary.


I like how he used the phrase "mired in the past" describing McCain. Someone above posted about catch phrases or keywords. The Obama campaign should run with that one.
#35 Sep 27 2008 at 7:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Anytime a debater says to his opponent, "I agree with you!" or "You are right!" then it is safe to say you lost. And seeing that the Black Neo capitulated before the war veteren at least a dozen times by agreeing with him or acknowledging the correctness of McCain's positions, Obama lost badly.

Totem
#36 Sep 27 2008 at 7:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Anytime a debater says to his opponent, "I agree with you!" or "You are right!" then it is safe to say you lost.

Totem

Really? I tended to think it showed that not everything has to be black or white, split between two party lines, and Obama had the ability to cross lines for the betterment of the American people. huh
#37 Sep 27 2008 at 7:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Sweetheart, this was a debate, not a knitting circle. Agreement defeats the raison d'etre of its intended purpose: To delineate the differences between the candidates.

Totem
#38 Sep 27 2008 at 7:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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So you are saying, that in a debate, even if two people agree on a stance, they should pretend they don't in order to appease the pathetic attention span of the majority of the American public? What? For entertainment purposes? And here I thought we were supposed to watch the debates to actually see where each candidate stood on each topic brought up. My bad Smiley: rolleyes
#39 Sep 27 2008 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Anytime a debater says to his opponent, "I agree with you!" or "You are right!" then it is safe to say you lost. And seeing that the Black Neo capitulated before the war veteren at least a dozen times by agreeing with him or acknowledging the correctness of McCain's positions, Obama lost badly.


So is Obama supposed to like act they disagree on points they have in common?

When you acknowledge the validity of your interlocutor's points, its not capitulation, its honest debate. Its how real progress is made, as opposed to the usual political cesspool of nit picking ******** and intellectual dishonesty. Frankly I find it refreshing. I don't know how effective it is, but I like it.



Edited, Sep 27th 2008 11:23am by MightyMolasses
#40 Sep 27 2008 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Anytime a debater says to his opponent, "I agree with you!" or "You are right!" then it is safe to say you lost.


*********
#41 Sep 27 2008 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Well I'm glad the two of you agree the Black Neo won the Miss Congeniality prize, but for my money I want to see an argument, not Chip 'n' Dale breaking their backs to be nice to each other.

Agreeing with your opponent in a debate is conceding ground, thus is a form of losing. Unless agreement is laying the groundwork for a trap-- something I am taking pains to point out did not happen --then you are losing on points as well as blunting the force of your position. After all, debate is about differences, not singing kum-by-yah.

Totem
#42 Sep 27 2008 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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See? Ducky gets it. "Bullsh1t!" is good debating rhetoric in that it shows disagreement.

/clap

Well done, Duck. Terrific demonstration of my patently obvious point.

Totem
#43 Sep 27 2008 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Totem wrote:
Agreeing with your opponent in a debate is conceding ground, thus is a form of losing.


Again, *********


Intelligent adults can discuss topics without bickering like children and yes, occasionally agree on things. I realize that's beyond your capacity to understand or accept, but it doesn't make it untrue. The presidential debate is about discussing differences in the candidates' platforms, and is not a place for your knuckle dragging, chest beating, howling at the moon way of doing things.
#44 Sep 27 2008 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
Well I'm glad the two of you agree the Black Neo won the Miss Congeniality prize, but for my money I want to see an argument, not Chip 'n' Dale breaking their backs to be nice to each other.

Agreeing with your opponent in a debate is conceding ground, thus is a form of losing. Unless agreement is laying the groundwork for a trap-- something I am taking pains to point out did not happen --then you are losing on points as well as blunting the force of your position. After all, debate is about differences, not singing kum-by-yah.

Totem


Actually I never said Obama won the debate in itself. I think there was no clear winner at all. But for McCain that is not good as this was supposed to be his strongest point with foreign relations. Debates is not soley about differences. It is about picking a stance on a topic and defending it. This particular debate and the lead questions asked of each just showed that the two candidates have common ground in certain areas. I dont find that to be a bad thing at all for either candidate.

Agreeing with a candidate if you actually agree is not losing. It's showing maturity and the ability to use ones intellect instead of taking every single point and arguing against foe the sake of "debating". I mean, if you would rather think a winner equals mudslinging for every topic as opposed to one showing what their true stances are on a particular issue, then by all means, go ahead and say Obama was a definite loser. I think that the majority of swing voters would highly disagree with you though, and the polls prove it. And their opinions are the ones who matter most right now. Smiley: nod
#45 Sep 27 2008 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Oh I dunno DSD, I'd rather see a candidate just lie if he agrees with the opposition on anything at all. Admitting we have any common ground can really only lead to cooperation between parties and we can't have that.

Nexa
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#46 Sep 27 2008 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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God forbid. it would mean the end of our Utopian country if that happened
#47 Sep 27 2008 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Ducky, you say howl, I say sing. The fact you can't appreciate the music of my argument speaks more to your tone-deaf ears than to my ability to clearly and effectively state my point.

As to the debate, my observation is that McCain started off slow for the first third of the debate.
Obama was less professorial than he has been in the past.
The debate's intended subject matter of foreign policy shifted to more immediate concerns about the economy, which ostensibly should have been Obama's strong suit, but surprisingly to many commentators, he was not particularly effective there.
McCain showed more emotion and was more charismatic.
Obama used stats and dispassionate arguments.
Obama tried to make himself seem more approachable by refering to McCain as "John," while McCain chose to more formally call Barack "Senator Obama." Neither one addressed the impending solution to the fiscal crisis we are in, but that isn't surprising in that Washington DC hasn't hammered out the details yet.
McCain was more pugnacious, Obama was more conciliatory.

All-in-all, in my opinion it was a draw that favored McCain because of good one liners, he fought to a stalemate despite the change in subject matter to economics, and he was not supposed to be terribly prepared after erratically flying around the country avoiding (according to Dem spin meisters) this debate.

Totem

Edited, Sep 27th 2008 11:48am by Totem
#48 Sep 27 2008 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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That's the whole issue, DSD. The debate centered on the economy, not foreign relations like it was supposed to. This is where Obama was supposed to shine (bad pun, sorry) and even in your view, it was largely a draw, thus a win for McCain for stalemating him on a subject he wasn't expected to win.

Totem
#49 Sep 27 2008 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
That's the whole issue, DSD. The debate centered on the economy, not foreign relations like it was supposed to. This is where Obama was supposed to shine (bad pun, sorry) and even in your view, it was largely a draw, thus a win for McCain for stalemating him on a subject he wasn't expected to win.

Totem


The beginning was about the economy, considering the dire straights we are facing now. I would have not expected any less. And you are correct in that Obama was unable to give specifics on what he would do which is what we needed to hear. However, in my humble opinion, I would rather have a candidate not say specifics if he does not have them yet, carefully thought out, than to have a candidate propose an entire spending freeze just to have an answer. A spending freeze is a bold move, but one that does not show specifics to the voters on what that would actually entail. And the repercussions of said spending freeze could be astronomical. I dont think either candidate did well, and I expect a lot more details in the final debate when it is based on economy.

Since the debate was also about foreign policy, the place where McCain should shine above and beyond Obama, which he did not do, that is very telling. Obama had some good ideas, was in agreement in some important aspects, and showed he had a rather good handle on foreign situations, despite his "lack of experience". For someone who has a lot less experience in foreign policy, I think he held his own. That bodes ill for McCain, since his expansive amount of experience should have blown Obama out of the water and then some. But he failed to do so.
#50 Sep 27 2008 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, in defense of Obama-- and McCain for that matter --just how is he supposed to give specifics on saving the economy when Congress hasn't even hammered out a plan yet? This is precisely the point about having unrealistic expectations and perceptions of presidential candidates. You expect them to have a concise 3 point plan that spells out in detail what they are going to do to fix something, be that the economy, Iraq, lower student graduation rates, etc.

It's ridiculous to have such expectations, particularly since in the economy's case, no one knows what to do yet. You set the threshold for success so high, it's no wonder each of you are dissappointed after every administration.

Totem
#51 Sep 27 2008 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
That's the whole issue, DSD. The debate centered on the economy, not foreign relations like it was supposed to.
Did you turn off the TV after the first 20 minutes?

Pretty much everyone is calling it a tie because Obama was better on the economy and McCain was slightly better on the foreign relations. However, the bulk of the debate was about foreign policy so McCain's high point lasted longer. Still, the general view is that Obama held his own on what should have been McCain's best field.

I know you love Slate so here's your OMG THIS WAS IN SLATE!! moment of the day:
OMG SLATE!!! wrote:
Tie Goes to Obama: Neither candidate won a clear victory

Obama and McCain looked like equals onstage. McCain turned in a marginally stronger performance, but Obama looked strong enough, and in a tough year for Republicans with Obama leading in the polls, that's a victory for the Democrat. Obama did what he needed to do to convince people he could be commander in chief—his challenge for the night. McCain showed he could talk about the economy—his challenge—but not so brilliantly that he dented Obama's advantage on the issue.

Obama's big test was to help viewers see him as a possible commander in chief. There were a lot of people watching who have never taken such a considered look at the Democratic challenger. He was firm in his beliefs and clear in his views on foreign policy. He performed better than he did on the 40 minutes of economic policy the two men discussed at the start of the debate.

McCain repeatedly asserted that on foreign-policy issues Obama "didn't understand." But Obama didn't look like a man who didn't understand. McCain was essentially calling Obama a Sarah Palin—but Obama didn't look like one. He walked back his position on meeting with rogue leaders as far as he credibly could, and he was clear about when he would use military force, which balanced out his talk about diplomacy.
They're calling it a tie for the opposite reasons that many others are but the point is the same -- McCain needed a game changer and failed to produce one.
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