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NY Times article on Sarah PalinFollow

#27 Sep 15 2008 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
knoxsouthy wrote:
Obama was doing coke and smoking pot while McCain was fighting for his country. It's in his book.
Obama was smoking pot and doing coke when he was 6 years old?
#28 Sep 15 2008 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mindel wrote:
Obama was smoking pot and doing coke when he was 6 years old?
Yes, which makes him even better to run the country. Seriously, how much of a genius do you have to be to do stuff like that at 6 years old and have the intelligence, willpower and determination to turn your life around to later, run for president. Admirable if you ask me.
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#29 Sep 15 2008 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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knoxsouthy wrote:
Cat,

I'm a firm believer in dealing with terrorists before they conduct another 911 if that's what you're asking. To bad Clinton didn't have something like the Bush doctrine, perhaps we could have avoided 911.

oh and quite a few fannie mae's ex-executives are on Obama's economic advisory council.

Who was president when 9/11 happened again? Someone remind me.
#30 Sep 15 2008 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Who was president when 9/11 happened again? Someone remind me.
That's a poor argument as many issues arise as a result of previous administrations' behaviours/policies. No way 9/11 was completely planned and executed solely under Bush's time in office.
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#31 Sep 15 2008 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Who was president when 9/11 happened again? Someone remind me.
That's a poor argument as many issues arise as a result of previous administrations' behaviours/policies. No way 9/11 was completely planned and executed solely under Bush's time in office.
I know, its just fun to point out his blatant flaws of logic.
#32 Sep 15 2008 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Mindel wrote:
Obama was smoking pot and doing coke when he was 6 years old?
Yes, which makes him even better to run the country. Seriously, how much of a genius do you have to be to do stuff like that at 6 years old and have the intelligence, willpower and determination to turn your life around to later, run for president. Admirable if you ask me.
When I was six, I was afraid to talk to a cashier at the grocery store, much less score some coke for myself. This man is a walking miracle.
#35 Sep 15 2008 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
knoxsouthy wrote:
Ash,

Quote:
I know, its just fun to point out his blatant flaws of logic.


Apparently you struggle at the concept of exaggeration. I wasn't about to look up exactly when Obama was smoking the crack pipe.
Jesus, you are one of the worst fucking trolls I've ever seen. Smiley: lol
#36 Sep 15 2008 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah. Virus has never gotten the knack of stopping at a believable statement. He always has to push it over the edge of credibility.

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#38 Sep 15 2008 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought people believing you was the whole point of making absurd claims.
#39 Sep 15 2008 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Actually, Clinton got pretty close to taking out Osama with some missles during his administration after the bombing of the US cole.

Clinton's issue was that he didn't want to lob missles @ places where they might take out innocent women & children.

W? Not so much.

Edited, Sep 15th 2008 8:56pm by Omegavegeta
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#40 Sep 15 2008 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Actually, Clinton got pretty close to taking out Obama with some missles during his administration after the bombing of the US cole.
I knew Clinton hated the blacks.
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#41 Sep 15 2008 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
Virus' un Sub Defaulted posts have taken their toll on me.

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#42 Sep 15 2008 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
knoxsouthy wrote:
Ugly,

Well the muslims for america support Obama. So when I say radical muslims are for Obama it's a fact. Obama was also against the surge that has been a tremendous success for the US, not so much for the radical muslims.

http://www.muslimsforobama08.com/

Oh and Obama is a marxist,

Quote:
On the issue of recession, Obama said he wasn't concerned with what the technical definition is. He said he was more concerned with how people "feel," which is the same sentiment CNN senior business correspondent Ali Velshi expressed on the October 18 "American Morning."


It's not about "technical definitions" it's about how the people "feel". So when radical leftist feel the need to invent new definitions for words like "recession" so they can use them as a political weapon it's alright as long as they "feel" good about doing it.

Nevermind the fact that he's spent the last 20yrs attending an extremely radical church. And yes where you attend church is a reflection of you.

Obama was doing coke and smoking pot while McCain was fighting for his country. It's in his book.

Let's not forget his connections with Rezko and Ayers.

But all that aside Obama has by far the most liberal voting record in the senate, when he's not voting present on controversial issues.

Quote:
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings. The insurgent presidential candidate shifted further to the left last year in the run-up to the primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate.


http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/
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1. and the kkk is for mccain. what exactly is your point about the muslims, extremists or not?

2. do you even know what a marxist is? karl marx wrote a book on a utopoean society in russia during a time of conctant civil uprest and war. a book which was used to model the socialist style government on based on a premise VERY MUCH LIKE the CONSTITUTION that all people were created equal. the soviets took it to the next level in maintaining that no one should be held above anyone else and that every one should work for the common good of the whole of the people.

the socialism of russia and even china for that matter is based on the very same principles that our constitution is. socialism is also alot closer to what the Bible describes than our capitolistic society. the main differance between communism and capitolism is that communism takes all people being equal to mean financially too. capitolism is more dog eat dog and survival of the fittest.

even the Bible extols on us the responsibility of people in need. not charity, but a real demand. we are our brothers keeper. we are RESPONSIBLE for our brothers well being.

so, Obama is a marxist? well, so was Jesus. put that in your right wing pipe and smoke it.

3, recession. how people FEEL is EXACTLY what we need to worrie about. 70 percent of our economy is based on FEEL about their financial condition. if they dont FEEL good about it, they stop spending. the entire stock market is largely based on how people FEEL about stuff. oil for instance still only cost around 10 bucks a barrow to pump out of the ground. what people are paying for it on the open market is mostly how people FEEL about its supply and about how people FEEL wars and natural disasters will factor into the cost nest month/year/ten years.

so how people FEEL about their economic situation is very very pertenant. technical definitions are for spinn pundits like the whole torture issue and what exactly is a prisoner of war. i guarentee you every one of those detainees FEELS like a prisoner of war reguardless of the legal definition. just like most americans FEEL we tortured them reguardlss of how this addministraiton DEFINES torture.

4. obama has a liberal voting record. HELLO McFly. he is a DEMOCRAT. do you think he could have won the party nomination with a conservative voting record?

here is one for you. mccain has a 90 percent conservative voting record. sooo, good luck getting liberals to vote for him? is that your point? ok, you win. conservatives probably wont vote fore obama. who would have guessed?

5........

the national journal.

its a REPUBLICAN spinn rag. its worse than fox news. its primary mantra is "tell a lie long enough and people will believe its the truth" obamas a fanatical right wing muslim extremist who wants to turn our country into the nest marxist revolution.

its true. must be. it was in the national journal......

dude. if your going to quote something, especially something you know NOTHING about, try a simi respectible source atleast if you cant find a truly bipartisn source.

coarse, if your not with us your against us, so, unless its fox news or the national journal, its a liberal biased media plot to overthrow the country. right?




#43 Sep 15 2008 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
knoxsouthy wrote:
Ash,

Who was given information by the previous administration that Bin Laden was planning something potentially catastrophic and proceeded to ignore it until it was too late?


Fixed.

Quote:
Who was president during the oklahoma city bombing, which the muslims were, as it turned out, in no way behind?

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcveigh/part02.htm


Also fixed.

Do you honestly believe that Timothy McVeigh's (ultimately unsuccessful) defense strategy proves that Muslims did it?

You must believe that David Berkowitz's dog really DID tell him to kill people, too...
#44 Sep 15 2008 at 6:25 PM Rating: Default
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catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Seems Knoxsouthy is a firm believer in the Bush Doctrine anyway.

Did anyone every explain to poor Palin what it was?


Explain a Doctrine that Gibson made up (or, more correctly, the liberals made up)? No. That was actually one of the more amusing parts of the interview. It did show Palin's inexperience though, since she should have nailed him on it.

Neither the invasion of Afghanistan nor of Iraq represented a new "Doctrine" that allowed the US to attack and invade a country purely because we thought they might become a threat someday (which is what Gibson said). This is an imaginary "doctrine" that you'll see leftists editorialists parrot now and then, but isn't actually a real doctrine.

The sad bit is how many of you seem to think that it's real and that she should have known what the hell he was talking about. I'll give you a hint as to why the doctrine as stated by Gibson is false, and it's not even complicated: We were already at a state of war with Iraq, thus invading Iraq does not establish a precedent (much less a "Doctrine") for the US to use to invade other countries.
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#45 Sep 15 2008 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh. And for the record, the other part of that interview that Palin's inexperience showed was when she didn't nail Gibson over his use of the word "right" when trying desperately to get her to provide a sound bite about it being ok to make attacks into Pakistan without their permission. Was that not the most obvious baiting you've ever seen? Sheesh!

The correct response which she should have given is this: "Countries don't have rights. People do. Countries have obligations to their citizens". Then you let him sputter around and try to rephrase the question. That's how someone who's really on top of the issues should have answered that one. She did ok though since she didn't let him corner her into making a sound bite, unlike Obama who fell right into that trap.
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#46 Sep 15 2008 at 7:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
"Countries don't have rights. People do. Countries have obligations to their citizens".


The govt of Pakistan has an obligation to protect the 'rights' of its people not to be blown to smithereens by a foreign military power.
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#47 Sep 15 2008 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Smiley: deadhorse Smiley: banghead

Quote:
We were already at a state of war with Iraq, thus invading Iraq does not establish a precedent (much less a "Doctrine") for the US to use to invade other countries.


That wasn't war.

More a medievel style siege. And it had been pretty succesful in keeping Iraq incapable of any type of threat to anyone outside its own truncated borders, as shown by the lack of WMD's turned up, that were given as the reason to pre-emptively attack them.

Palin is a 'creationist' you know?

Why would you expect her to have an sound understanding of foreign policy and events if she cant make sensible decisions based on best evidence??


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#48 Sep 15 2008 at 7:30 PM Rating: Decent
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paulsol wrote:
Quote:
"Countries don't have rights. People do. Countries have obligations to their citizens".


The govt of Pakistan has an obligation to protect the 'rights' of its people not to be blown to smithereens by a foreign military power.


Irrelevant to the discussion. The opinions or rights of the Pakistani people wasn't mentioned at all. He asked if she felt that the "US has the right" to conduct attacks into Pakistan without getting the Pakistani government's permission.

The correct answer is exactly what I wrote. It forces him to re-word his question. More significantly, it blunts what he was going after, which is some sort of soundbite expressing the manifest destiny of the US with regard to our ability (or "right") to do what we want because we think it's the right thing to do and without regard for anyone else.

Even better, it makes him look like an idiot for thinking that a government has rights (they don't), makes her look like she's got a better grasp of basic civics than he does, and utterly obliterates any ability for him to continue pursuing that line of question.


Remember. The point of these interviews is not the whole interview itself. Only a tiny fraction of the people ever actually watch them, and most of those people have already made up their minds before doing so. It's the generation of short sound bites that's important. That's why she keeps repeating the same semi-elusive responses over and over and also why he keeps asking the same question over and over. He's fishing for a soundbite that'll make her look bad, she's making sure she only gives him soundbites that will play correctly with the platform she's running on.


You seriously saying you watched that interview and didn't pick up on it? Or are you honestly naive enough to think that he asked the same question 10 times because he really didn't think she answered it well enough the first 9 times? He's hoping that she'll get frustrated with him and give him a different answer on that 10th time and that it'll be something that'll give them that juicy soundbite they're really looking for.
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#49 Sep 15 2008 at 7:35 PM Rating: Default
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paulsol wrote:
Smiley: deadhorse Smiley: banghead

Quote:
We were already at a state of war with Iraq, thus invading Iraq does not establish a precedent (much less a "Doctrine") for the US to use to invade other countries.


That wasn't war.

More a medievel style siege.


Which is something you only do when you are at war.


You can hem and haw all you want. The absolute fact is that the US was in an official, legal, and internationally recognized "state of war" with Iraq (specifically the Hussein regime) from 1991 to 2003.


Just because we hadn't put active ground forces into Iraq for 10 years does not change that legal state. Until a peace treaty is signed, we remain at a state of war. It doesn't magically end because you want it to.


Quote:
And it had been pretty succesful in keeping Iraq incapable of any type of threat to anyone outside its own truncated borders, as shown by the lack of WMD's turned up, that were given as the reason to pre-emptively attack them.


Irrelevant. Choosing to invade a country that you are currently at a state of war with (with only a cease fire agreement) does *not* constitute a precedent, much less a doctrine, to allow the invasion of other nations who we are not at war with.

Calling it so does not make it so. There is no such "Bush Doctrine", outside of the liberal press inventing the term and the meaning. It does not exist in fact, nor even in interpretation of the decisions made by President Bush.
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#50 Sep 15 2008 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
It does not exist in fact, nor even in interpretation of the decisions made by President Bush.


The National Security Strategy wrote:

V. Prevent Our Enemies from Threatening Us, Our Allies, and Our Friends with Weapons of Mass Destruction
A. Summary of National Security Strategy 2002

The security environment confronting the United States today is radically different from what we have faced before. Yet the first duty of the United States Government remains what it always has been: to protect the American people and American interests. It is an enduring American principle that this duty obligates the government to anticipate and counter threats, using all elements of national power, before the threats can do grave damage. The greater the threat, the greater is the risk of inaction – and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy’s attack. There are few greater threats than a terrorist attack with WMD.

To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively in exercising our inherent right of self-defense. The United States will not resort to force in all cases to preempt emerging threats. Our preference is that nonmilitary actions succeed. And no country should ever use preemption as a pretext for aggression.

Countering proliferation of WMD requires a comprehensive strategy involving strengthened nonproliferation efforts to deny these weapons of terror and related expertise to those seeking them; proactive counterproliferation efforts to defend against and defeat WMD and missile threats before they are unleashed; and improved protection to mitigate the consequences of WMD use. We aim to convince our adversaries that they cannot achieve their goals with WMD, and thus deter and dissuade them from attempting to use or even acquire these weapons in the first place.


Section V
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#51 Sep 16 2008 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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Gbaji, two things.

1. A TECHNICAL state of war is not the same creature as being at war. Being legally in a state of continuing cease-fire, where all hostilities are years in the past because the cease-fire actually took, is not the same moral and legal creature as a cease-fire that is 5 days old.

Could anyone tell me the technical legal state that the USA and/or Australia is in with these countries: Japan, North Korea, and Vietnam. If we are actually technically at peace, can anyone tell me the date we moved from a state of cease-fire to a state of LEGAL peace with them? Because if we are not still "Technically" at war with them, I'm pretty sure that it was decades after the ceasefires went into effect that we actually signed any peace treaties with them. It's why Japan doesn't HAVE an "Armed Force" to this day, only a "Self-Defence Force", and why it was HIGHLY controversial that some of Japan's "Self-Defence Force" personnel were posted overseas to render humanitarian aid in the wake of the Christmas Day Tsunami. It was the very first time that any of them had left Japan's soil as Self-Defense Personnel. A lot of Japanese people were very nervous that sending these "Self-Defense Force" personnel overseas, even for aid purposes, was a technical breach of the WW2 ceasefire treaty with America that is still in effect. They thought that the Japanese government was handing America a legal weapon to exact any sort of financial, trade, treaty, or military sanctions that they pleased.

And yet, can you imagine what the world would say if America attacked Japan right now, on the grounds that, "It's not an invasion, we're still legally at war with Japan since 1942?"

2. People as legal citizens have both rights and responsibilities. Nations as legal entities have both rights and responsibilities. There's a big list in the UN, in the World Court, and in any treaty between nation-states going back hundreds of years of the rights that a Sovereign Nation has. China likes to wave around the UN list of Sovereign Rights a Nation-State has whenever anyone brings up the Free-Tibet movement.

Most rights come with a concomitant responsibility even when it's not explicitly stated, it's just obviously implied. My right to life comes with the concomitant responsibility not to kill anyone else when they **** me off or trespass against me. If you want to drag out any Responsibility a Nation has, you'll probably find a concomitant Right that it has that goes along with it. For example, the Responsibility to not attack a Sovereign Nation comes along with the concomitant Right not to be attacked by foreign powers.

Most definitions of an attack by a foreign power probably start along these lines: Soldiers paid for and under the orders of one Sovereign Nation entering the territory of a second Sovereign Nation and physically molesting or killing citizens there. (The definition probably goes on to include: And/Or occupying the physical territory of the second Sovereign Nation.) But that first definition is why we have Extradition Treaties, and why sometimes law-enforcement officials sometimes get diplomatic passes to enter a foreign nation and arrest people on that nation's soil. They can be very heavily armed and resourced law enforcement officials if they have to be. All kitted out with armaments and search-and-rescue gear for rugged terrain.

Edited, Sep 16th 2008 4:56am by Aripyanfar
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