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#52 Sep 11 2008 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel
From my source
    Catholicism
by R P McBrien copyright 1980. (Later on McBrien ran into trouble with some members of the RC hierarchy.)

Excommunication - The expulsion of an individual from the Church, more particularly from Eucharist. (Glossary definition0

Your citation is correct in that one may be excommunicated and still be Christian, but they are not a member in good standing of the RC church.
Its mainly a question of nuance and intent.

Edited, Sep 11th 2008 7:05pm by Jonwin
#53 Sep 11 2008 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Somehow I knew this thread would make Jonwin use one of the many books from his time in seminary. Someday I hope to have as many books on Celtic Paganism, as he has on Catholicism.

We're both member of the RC in bad standing according to him.

I just refuse to accept a religion that won't let me be a married priestess. Being a nun never appealed to me. Plus Pagan Great Rite > then RC High Mass, though risk of STD's has now made the actual sex is just a act, during the rite just as the wafer and wine symbolize Christ's body and blood.

Still I have a strange fondness for a dry wafer and small sip of wine occasionally.
____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#54 Sep 11 2008 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Why are you guys citing stuff? Just ask Gbaji, he's the resident expert on religion right?
#55 Sep 11 2008 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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ElneClare wrote:
Somehow I knew this thread would make Jonwin use one of the many books from his time in seminary. Someday I hope to have as many books on Celtic Paganism, as he has on Catholicism.


Paganism is bullsh1t.
#56 Sep 11 2008 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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zepoodle wrote:
ElneClare wrote:
Somehow I knew this thread would make Jonwin use one of the many books from his time in seminary. Someday I hope to have as many books on Celtic Paganism, as he has on Catholicism.


Paganism is bullsh1t.


I see you're an expert.







That is when talking about ******************** You're shown yourself to be a complete moron about everything else in your posts here.
____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#57 Sep 11 2008 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
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TILT
Jonwin wrote:
Your citation is correct in that one may be excommunicated and still be Christian, but they are not a member in good standing of the RC church.
Of course they're not in good standing. They've been excommunicated. That's considerably different from no longer being Catholic, period.

For giggles, here's the definition of excommunication from the Catechism:
The Vatican wrote:
Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them.
...and then, under "Censures"...
The Vatican wrote:
An excommunicated person is forbidden:

  • to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the sacrifice of the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship whatsoever;
  • to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals and to receive the sacraments;
  • to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance.

  • If the excommunication has been imposed or declared, the offender:
  • who wishes to act against the prescript of §1, n. 1 must be prevented from doing so, or the liturgical action must be stopped unless a grave cause precludes this;
  • invalidly places acts of governance which are illicit according to the norm of §1, n. 3;
  • is forbidden to benefit from privileges previously granted;
  • cannot acquire validly a dignity, office, or other function in the Church;
  • does not appropriate the benefits of a dignity, office, any function, or pension, which the offender has in the Church.
  • That's it. You're not allowed to partake of the Sacraments, unable to hold Church office and ineligible to receive any benefits from the Church. But nowhere does it say that you're stripped of your basic Catholicism.
    ____________________________
    Belkira wrote:
    Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
    #58 Sep 11 2008 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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    ElneClare wrote:
    I see you're an expert.


    I'm not the one mistakenly attributing ritual orgies to Celtic polytheism.

    Evidence for Iron Age Celtic religion comes from some biased classical sources, archaeology, and some oral legends that were only put to paper in the Middle Ages. It's a ripe area for historical study due to the insight it gives into Gallic society before the Roman invasions. It's not a thing to put your faith into. Even when the Celts practiced it, they weren't very serious about it. It's a convoluted jumble of animal spirits and hunter-gods and superhuman mythical figures running around pre-Roman France and Britain. Taking it as basis for theology is like me using the Illiad as a religious text.

    Quote:
    That is when talking about sh*t. You're shown yourself to be a complete moron about everything else in your posts here.


    You're a fan?
    #59 Sep 12 2008 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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    zepoodle

    Trying to base one's beliefs on any Mythology actually doesn't make sense logically, but that hasn't stopped people before.

    Maybe I should have just used the Term Wiccan, but then that can mean anything from Gardnerian Tradition to Fluffy Bunny Witches. I'm a Solitary Pagan, who finds it easier to think along the lines of Joseph Campbell's Mask of Gods books and The Power of Myth., with Celtic, Norse and Finish folklore mixed with Siberian Shamanism. I'm still constantly seeking more knowledge to fill my understanding of how I relate to the Earth, Air, Water and Fire and feel like a mare student search of great mystery.

    Makes enough sense to me then a Book that has been copied through the ages, that most American's base their faith on.

    BTW here is a wiki stub on Great Riteand Tridentine Mass, of which I grew up attending before Vatican II. Both are of the many forms of worship of the Spiritual world humans have develop since they first felt a need for rituals.
    ____________________________
    In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

    This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
    #60 Sep 12 2008 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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    So in a pagan sex ritual, who gets stuck with sloppy seconds? Does the highest of high priests get to tap that a$$ first so he doesn't get somebody else's man-goo on his wang, thus turning him into some kind of Gay-an Earth mother?

    /chuckle

    I crack myself up.

    Totem
    #61 Sep 12 2008 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
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    ElneClare wrote:
    zepoodle

    Trying to base one's beliefs on any Mythology actually doesn't make sense logically, but that hasn't stopped people before.

    Maybe I should have just used the Term Wiccan, but then that can mean anything from Gardnerian Tradition to Fluffy Bunny Witches. I'm a Solitary Pagan, who finds it easier to think along the lines of Joseph Campbell's Mask of Gods books and The Power of Myth., with Celtic, Norse and Finish folklore mixed with Siberian Shamanism. I'm still constantly seeking more knowledge to fill my understanding of how I relate to the Earth, Air, Water and Fire and feel like a mare student search of great mystery.

    Makes enough sense to me then a Book that has been copied through the ages, that most American's base their faith on.

    BTW here is a wiki stub on Great Riteand Tridentine Mass, of which I grew up attending before Vatican II. Both are of the many forms of worship of the Spiritual world humans have develop since they first felt a need for rituals.


    Holy ****, you're a wiccan. I thought you were one of those Celtic Reconstructionist people. I guess the Great Rite should have given it away. You realise everything you're talking about was invented in the 20th century, yeah?

    Well, whatever you like to believe in, I guess. Just don't pretend it's any more coherent than Catholicism. I mean, in terms of "logic" Wicca is just one rank above Scientology, which can be considered the bottom of the theological barrel.

    Quote:
    So in a pagan sex ritual, who gets stuck with sloppy seconds? Does the highest of high priests get to tap that a$$ first so he doesn't get somebody else's man-goo on his wang, thus turning him into some kind of Gay-an Earth mother?

    /chuckle


    As said by the forum's resident empowered witch woman, the Great Rite is led by a priestess, not a priest, and the sex is simulated for obvious reasons. It would in fact be more accurate if it was being led by a guy. Celtic religion was highly patriarchal and some sources (dubious ones) claim they regularly practiced human sacrifice, which is itself unlikely. Even the dubious sources don't mention ritual sexual practices, all that stuff was invented to give students an excuse to get high and ****.

    Paganism isn't to be thought of as synonymous with orgies and devil-worship. The Vestal Virgins were pagans too.

    Edited, Sep 12th 2008 11:10pm by zepoodle
    #62 Sep 13 2008 at 6:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Zep, I'm well aware of Wicca being an invented Religion. I find "true" Believer's rather over the top. My interest is that I've always felt a deep love for the natural world. What interesxts me about these "New" religions is how they draw from what little we know about early humans worship of the "Goddess" that have been found in antiquity. I came to study up one what was known about these early Digs and how as cultures change, one still can find Goddess symbols used in art up to today.


    So I find using a taking a little from this and that is normal pattern in the formation of new Religions. In fact that I read up on various religions and then use what feel comfortable when I want to worship the world I live in is natural. Some times you see it in my Art, other times it's just between me and the moment in time and isn't shared with others, unless I feel an need to.


    I would never take Scientology as anything up a huge con job started by talk of a few SF writer's sitting at a bar during a Convention. I knew Jack Chaulker for several years before he died and still friends with his Widow and sons. Jack love to sit and chat with anyone who was willing to put up with him and often tell how Scientology started as a joke. Look it up as I'm sure others must have mention the conversation on various boards and blogs.

    Thus my point is that Religions are Man and Women made up myths and rites to help them with a need to connect to something larger then themselves. Neuroscience recently has show that humans are hard wire to have spiritual feeling, through the latest brain imaging. I'm just trying how to integrate my skeptical side with the fact that at times I feel a need to stand in awe over the natural world. Creating my own Rites just seem natural way to go.

    BTW Toteum, I Top when I have Ritual Sex with Jonwin. Though actually both the Priestess and Priest should be in total control during the Great Rite, from what I read through various sources.
    ____________________________
    In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

    This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
    #63 Sep 13 2008 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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    So...as politely as I can say this, we both agree that it's bullsh1t?

    Great. :)
    #64 Sep 13 2008 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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    YesSmiley: grin

    I just prefer to compost the Bullshit, for my garden.
    ____________________________
    In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

    This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
    #65 Sep 13 2008 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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    That's actually a very clever life philosophy.
    #66 Sep 14 2008 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    I mean, in terms of "logic" Wicca is just one rank above Scientology, which can be considered the bottom of the theological barrel.

    You realize there is no theological "logic" ranking? There is no barrel to be at the bottom of. There is a two-dimensional plane on which all religions lie.

    #67 Sep 14 2008 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
    Repressed Memories
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    Quasi-equivalence, not true equivalence.
    #68 Sep 15 2008 at 12:33 AM Rating: Decent
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    trickybeck wrote:
    Quote:
    I mean, in terms of "logic" Wicca is just one rank above Scientology, which can be considered the bottom of the theological barrel.

    You realize there is no theological "logic" ranking? There is no barrel to be at the bottom of. There is a two-dimensional plane on which all religions lie.


    I wouldn't say so. Buddhism is more logical than Hinduism, for example.
    #69 Sep 15 2008 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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    zepoodle wrote:
    trickybeck wrote:
    Quote:
    I mean, in terms of "logic" Wicca is just one rank above Scientology, which can be considered the bottom of the theological barrel.

    You realize there is no theological "logic" ranking? There is no barrel to be at the bottom of. There is a two-dimensional plane on which all religions lie.


    I wouldn't say so. Buddhism is more logical than Hinduism, for example.


    I think people on the Jnana Yoga (Path of Knowledge) would beg to disagree. Smiley: grin

    Not that I'm comfortable at objectively ranking religions. I'm just happy to personally throw aspersions at Scientology, The Sacred Brethren, and Jehovah's Witnesses.
    #70 Sep 15 2008 at 4:48 AM Rating: Decent
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    Of course Hindus would disagree. They're Hindu. Buddhism was invented after a sequestered Indian aristocrat worked out a priori a method for mitigating human suffering that could be widely utilized by laymen and priests alike. Following it from the ground up shows you a pretty solid, if counter-intuitive, analysis of the human self which never makes the significant leaps in logic that its contemporaries did.

    Edit: At least, that's what a Buddhist would say about Buddhism. A Hindu would say it's nihilist nonsense.

    Edited, Sep 15th 2008 8:44am by zepoodle
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